Surely, You're Not Afraid
To Post A Note
From A Christian??!
Mickey
Thu, 14 Nov 96 23:26 PST
From: mickey
To: Positive Atheism <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Surely, you're not afraid to post a note from a Christian??! I just have a couple of comments about the thought-provoking article, Why Be Afraid of The Religious Right, or whatever, to that effect.
Why do you suppose it is that we all know that it's wrong to kill? That didn't just evolve, did it? If so, how? You see, we all agree on a large number of things that are right and wrong. We agree that it's wrong to lie. We agree that it's wrong to steal. We agree that it's right for a mother to care for her children. We agree that it's wrong to commit rape. I could go on, but you get the point, here. These values are universal, from the largest to the least of all communities.
Why do we ALL have them? Why do we all share the SAME values, at our core? You know what my answer is. You could probably word it more succintly than I. God put those values in the heart of every man (and woman, lest anyone be offended).
If there is no God, then where DID the values come from? Come on, now. I want a real answer. I really want to know what you think. Because some of these values are completely contrary to "survival of the fittest" theories. Like stealing. Animals have no compunction about stealing food, bones, toys, young, nests, etc. Why do we? Does it really make sense that we'd have such a value that is so contrary to self-preservation, when evolutionally-speaking, it should have "evolved" to more sophisticated levels? That is not to say that the "art" of stealing HASN'T become more sophisticated, but the value is there, just the same. And violation of this value leads to low-self-esteem. And by the way, what's that doing there in the tree? Self-esteem. Do animals have self-esteem? No.
I'll send this to you regardless of your choice. You can post it if you choose, or not, and I won't be offended. But my heart wants to tell you the truth. I just hope and pray that you'll take another look at ALL the evidence and come to know the truth.
Surely, you're not afraid to post a note from a Christian??!
No. Why would you assume a thing like that!? Truth is made more evident through a lively discussion than it is through censorship of ideas, however absurd those ideas might sound to some.
I just have a couple of comments about the thought-provoking article, Why Be Afraid of The Religious Right, or whatever, to that effect.
Whatever.
Why do you suppose it is that we all know that it's wrong to kill? That didn't just evolve, did it? If so, how? You see, we all agree on a large number of things that are right and wrong. We agree that it's wrong to lie. We agree that it's wrong to steal. We agree that it's right for a mother to care for her children. We agree that it's wrong to commit rape. I could go on, but you get the point, here. These values are universal, from the largest to the least of all communities.
Yes. Even the so-called false false prophets and their false religions teach as truth what is obvious to almost any human who bothers to think.
Unfortunately, many religious people tell themselves that the word of "God" holds precedence over human wisdom and reason. When creeds and "divine" decrees are followed blindly, or are used to justify criminal behavior, society is infor some serious problems.
For example, some so-called prophets tell us that "God" told them that, in certain circumstances, it is okay to:
I don't think people would do this nearly as much were it not for the commands of their gods to exterminate those who refuse to join the religion in question (that is, their religious leaders telling them that the gods said this).
Why do we ALL have them? Why do we all share the SAME values, at our core? You know what my answer is. You could probably word it more succintly than I. God put those values in the heart of every man (and woman, lest anyone be offended).
If this is true, that "God" put these values in the heart of every human, then there is no need for the special revelation of so-called Scripture, is there?
If there is no God, then where DID the values come from? Come on, now. I want a real answer. I really want to know what you think. Because some of these values are completely contrary to "survival of the fittest" theories. Like stealing.
Quite the contrary. Often survival is the result of cooperation. To misrepresent the Theory of Evolution in this manner is very dishonest on your part -- as you already know, since "God" put the value of honesty in your heart. (Did your religious leaders tell you that your "God" wants you to lie in order to convince me that yours is a religion of truthfulness and my atheism is based upon falsehood?) Perhaps you may want to consider putting these values in your brain as well.
Animals have no compunction about stealing food, bones, toys, young, nests, etc. Why do we?
Do we? I am living on land that once "belonged" to Indians and animals. The food I ate yesterday was once the flesh of an animal. And the dog across the street sure gets riled when another tries to steal his bone! What are you saying, here?
Does it really make sense that we'd have such a value that is so contrary to self-preservation, when evolutionally-speaking, it should have "evolved" to more sophisticated levels?
Read the article Morality Without God by Chapman Cohen. He makes a solid case that humans, being social animals do best to suppress the tendency to destroy our fellows.
That is not to say that the "art" of stealing HASN'T become more sophisticated, but the value is there, just the same.
You lost me, here.
And violation of this value leads to low-self-esteem. And by the way, what's that doing there in the tree? Self-esteem. Do animals have self-esteem? No.
Atheist psychologist Albert Ellis revolutionized the field of psychology in the 1950s by pointing out that self-esteem, self-rating, is detrimental to one's self-interest. In its stead, Ellis and his followers advocate self-acceptance. Self-acceptance is the opposite of self-esteem or self-rating. As I said in my pamphlet "Rational Recovery Self-Help Meetings":
"Unconditional Self-Acceptance.
"A popular film among RR people is Sophie's Choice. In it, a mother is forced by her sadistic Nazi captors to choose which of her two children should live; if not, both would die. She discovered the difficulties of deciding human worth. To rate one child worth saving implied lesser worth to the other. This doctrine of variable human worth was a central belief of the Third Reich.
"External measures of individual worth (pay scales, life insurance policies, restitution payments) are not the same as one's intrinsic worth: the value one places on oneself. Since there is no scale with which to rate myself, I can rightly and accurately declare my value as a human to be infinite. Mine is the final word on this matter. My value rests entirely on the fact that I exist. I love myself simply because it feels better than self-loathing; I need no other reason to accept myself.
"Unconditional self-acceptance is the opposite of self-rating. High self-esteem can be just as detrimental as low self-esteem.... If I love myself, it is unlikely that I will do things that may harm me...."
Thus, if my behavior leads to low self-esteem, it is probably because I do not quite grasp what it means to be human.
I'll send this to you regardless of your choice. You can post it if you choose, or not, and I won't be offended. But my heart wants to tell you the truth.
I am not out to offend anybody, but sometimes people take my ideas very personally. Such people may do well to learn self-acceptance.
I just hope and pray that you'll take another look at ALL the evidence and come to know the truth.
There is no way I can look at all the facts; there is no way that my limited perceptions and limited reasoning skills can come to know any such thing as "the" truth. It doesn't bother me that some people lack the humility to admit that this applies to all humans.
I do know that no argument for the existence of "God" that I have considered holds water with me. Every argument I have considered was tried and found wanting -- seriously wanting. In the past fifteen years, I have not heard any new arguments in favor of the existence of "God." I have no reason -- compelling or otherwise -- to believe that "God" exists or that prayer is of any use or that any such place as "Hell" exists -- other than the towns of Hell, Norway and Hell, Michigan. So, I will continue to live my life as I have found it.
If you come up with anything new in regards to demonstrating to me that such character as "God" really exists, please don't hesitate to let me know. If there is a "God" out there, I want to know about it.
Material by Cliff Walker (including unsigned editorial commentary) is copyright ©1995-2006 by Cliff Walker. Each submission is copyrighted by its writer, who retains control of the work except that by submitting it to Positive Atheism, permission has been granted to use the material or an edited version: (1) on the Positive Atheism web site; (2) in Positive Atheism Magazine; (3) in subsequent works controlled by Cliff Walker or Positive Atheism Magazine (including published or posted compilations). Excerpts not exceeding 500 words are allowed provided the proper copyright notice is affixed. Other use requires permission; Positive Atheism will work to protect the rights of all who submit their writings to us.