Positive Atheism?
Troy B Dyck

Graphic Rule

Cliff Responds:

Well, then, let's examine what you have to say and see if it involves rational thought or if it involves something else entirely:

I am not trying to disprove anything. For you to say that I am (or to ask me why I am) is to presuppose that what I am trying to disprove is true. We have not yet established that in our dialogue, so do not base your assumptions about my behavior along those lines.

Actually, I have nothing to say. I don't believe the claims of the Christian Bible and that's that.

What I try to do is provide a forum for the benefit and amusement of other atheists. Most of us have been intimidated into remaining in the closet -- in the past by Christians, and in the present by Christians and Muslims and even Jews and a few New-Agers. I spend more time fielding challenging questions raised by atheists than I do rehashing the same ole' same-ole' with a theist.

I also work tirelessly toward separation of religion from Government, against the government-sponsored intrusion that Christianity (and lately, that whisp of a minority that is Judaism) has made in the lives of those of us who think it's all a bunch of hooey.

Anther big project is atheist dignity, considering that we have been lied about by theists (including yourself) for as far back as the records go (at least back to Psalm 14).


Why, thank you!

Maybe one person will be able to avoid the misery that I went through as a child, an atheist child growing up in a world where everybody believes in a different Santa Claus, but nobody bothers to check for footprints in the ashes the following morning.

Maybe nobody ever has to go to an American jail simply for refusing a judge's order to undergo religious indoctrination-- as I did in August-September of 1988.

That's Christian rationale as I often experience it based on some of this mail I receive.

This is why I never try to convince Christians to become atheists.

You say this and you don't even know me!

"It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood"
-- Abraham Lincoln

I do this as a hobby. Period. One of many hobbies. I am retired, I collected my pension, and I have a little time on my hands. I also spend several hours a week helping alcoholics learn how to quit drinking. I sing and I spin oldies on the radio and I attend concerts and I raise several cats and I have a wonderful girlfriend who demands lots of attention. I study European and American history and philosophy and music and psychology and the English language and several computer programming languages. And I do this in spite of serious medical impairments, which require that I spend much longer to do a job than others need to spend doing the same work.

Do not preface a statement about me, using the words "The truth is,..." before you have at least met me.

True, I am angry at the Christian religion because of its history of destruction both in my own life and in world history. And I am afraid, lest the Pat Robertsons and the Rev. William O. Einwechters of this world get the upper hand again. I would probably try to move to Russia.

You lie, you lie, you lie! Again! First, you don't know anything about me, and yet call me bitter. Is this some of that "Christian rational thought" that you spoke of in your opening statement to me?

Were you simply emulating that chameleon St. Paul, who became "all things to all people"? Were you trying to butter me up in the first sentence before you laid into me? Why did I suspect, before I got past the second line of your letter, that you were going to give me the ole' sucker punch?

How about a closed-minded Internet-Flamer Christian?

Christ allegedly told the people that if they did not hate their parents, they were not fit to be his disciples. Sorry, Jesus, I love my parents, and that's that.

Christ allegedly taught that people like me --people who don't believe that silly story about the talking snake and the apple, and the resulting need for redemption -- would burn in hell forever "where their worm dieth not."

Think about it: according to the Jesus myth, I will experience more pain than the whole history of the world combined, simply because every Christian I have met, who has tried to set me straight and help me see the light, has made no more sense than you have.

No. I don't buy it.

Even if it were true, I wouldn't want anything to do with one who would invent such a contraption as the Christian Hell.

But it isn't true, there is no Christian Hell, and for that we can all rejoice.

They all thought they were doing Christ's will:

You see? The witch burners and the Irish are simply following orders from the "Revealed Word" and are placing the "love" of Christ above their own human emotions. I find it hard to believe that people can do this to their minds, but they do. And they all think they are doing the will of a god, which has been revealed in some kind of bible.

However, the Bible does tell of one man who had sense enough to refuse to obey an order from Yahweh the Volcano God, who subsequently agreed that the "revealed word" was ludicrous:

Okay, should we set an example by striking a couple dead because they only put some but not all their money into the collection plate? (Acts v.)

Should we tempt people with the threat of reward or the promise of punishment if they don't do what we want them to do?

Let's destroy somebody's tree because it does not bear fruit in the springtime (when it's not even fig season)!

And while we're at it, let's steal someone else's donkey!

I think most individual humans of today could do much better if called upon to develop an ethical system than the entire editorial board of the New Testament.

Nor does it mean that Jesus Christ ever existed. The Christian religion does not need for Jesus to have existed to explain its existence.

I don't understand. Please explain.

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
P.O. Box 16811
Portland, OR 97292

"Is there an intelligent man or woman now
   in the world who believes in the Garden
   of Eden story? If you find any man who
   believes it, strike his forehead and you
   will hear an echo. Something is for rent."
          -- Robert Green Ingersoll

"A stupid man's report of what
   a clever man says is never accurate
   because he unconsciously translates
   what he hears into something
   that he can understand."
          -- Bertrand Russell

Graphic Rule

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