May God Have Mercy
On Your Soul
Hugh Thomas
From: "Hugh Thomas"
To: Positive Atheism
Subject: WebMaster: Positive Atheism Index
Date: Wednesday, December 15, 1999
There is nothing positive about the religion of atheism. Coupled with your fostered destruction of the American education system and your ignorance of history, you and your ilk are a major cause of the current ills of our nation.
May God have mercy on your soul,
Hugh Thomas
From: "Positive Atheism"
To: "Hugh Thomas"
Subject: WebMaster: Positive Atheism Index
Date: Wednesday, December 15, 1999
These are pretty serious charges. But at this point they are nothing more than empty statements, with no arguments or evidence. So, we must insist that you back them up.
First, what is your reasoning for calling the lack of religion (a-theism) a religion (theism)? Please explain to us, in detail, how this is not the patent abuse of language that it appears to be on the surface. Perhaps you have devised your own unique meaning for the word religion and have simply forgotten to enclose the word in quotation marks to alert the reader that you intend a different meaning from the conventional uses of the word?
And how are we destroying the American education system? (Be sure to show your work!) Also explain what history we have missed out on, and document your sources so we can verify your statements. (We have had serious problems with one David Barton of WallBuilders who has now admitted that he used false quotations of the American Founding Fathers to make his case that America is a Christian Nation; thus, we are well versed in American history, and how it has been falsely represented over recent years.)
Finally, please document the chain of causality between the existence and work of atheists and "the ills of our nation." Again, be specific.
If you cannot explain these things to us, we will have no choice but consider you just another crackpot who likes to make empty claims of a hateful nature.
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
From: "Hugh Thomas"
To: "Positive Atheism"
Subject: WebMaster: Positive Atheism Index
Date: Thursday, December 16, 1999
OK, Mr. Walker, here goes.
Definition from Webster: "Religion: A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects. The body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs of practices." "Atheism: The doctrine or belief that there is no God." Based on Webster's definition, Atheism is a religion with at least on fundamental belief. And since, by definition, Atheism is a religion, the "separation of church and state" is being violated by those court decisions favoring one religion, Atheism and it's believers, over those who believe in God.
Those faiths that acknowledge the existence of God and an eternal after life, based on an individual's behavior in this life, promotes responsible, moral behavior. With "God" removed from education there is no way for teachers to encourage anything but a relativistic morality based on human nature, and the result of that, sir, as can be observed, is a total failure. Human nature is selfish and self-centered, altruism based on human nature is done for self gratification, but isn't that the basis of Atheism, the worship of self?
Our nation was founded by people who had one thing in common, Christianity. Our body of laws are based on the English Common Law, which is in turn based on Christian principles. Our entire history, despite certain revisionist desires, is intertwined with the acknowledgment of God and the practice of Christianity (or the will of God, as interpreted or misinterpreted by men), to deny this is to deny fact. Many of our founding fathers may not have been fundamental Christians, but I have read nothing from any of them that denied the existence of God.
My background/expertise: MS in Education/History, Librarian, and of course a Christian.
You have the right to believe what you want, as do I. I will never force my beliefs on anyone, Christ did not, his disciples did not. I do resent those who continually force their ideas and beliefs and fears on me and mine. I can not prove the existence of God, I know in my heart He exists, because I have seen His work in my life and the lives of those around me. You can not prove He doesn't exist.
Now it is your turn. Prove what is positive about a belief of denial. Prove that you and your ilk are not the "crackpots". Of course, this is all rhetorical, you will never convince me and I will never convince you. Only God, as I have seen time and again, can convince you He exists. Otherwise, at least I have hope for something better after this existence, you have none.
Hugh Thomas
From: "Positive Atheism"
To: "Hugh Thomas"
Subject: WebMaster: Positive Atheism Index
Date: Thursday, December 16, 1999
Based on Webster's definition, Atheism is a religion ...
This is a lie. You will need to retract this or we don't want to hear from you again. We are serious. We have no patience for people who use deliberate falsehood to denounce atheism, and we consider this practice a vicious form of harassment. Mirriam-Webster's Tenth Collegiate Dictionary (the only real "Webster's") has no such meaning for religion but says:
1 a : the state of a religious (a nun in her 20th year of religion)
b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment
or devotion to religions faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes,
beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
According to this and except for the archaic definition (#3), religion always incorporates some form of faith or a system of beliefs -- the very things atheists lack. The primary definition (#1) specifies "God or the supernatural" as the object of the faith and belief and gives the example of a nun as someone who is religious. As an atheist, I accept certain claims as likely or valid or true (rather, true according to the currently available body of knowledge or according to my current level of education), and I reject other claims as unlikely or invalid or false (again, false according to current knowledge), but I suspend judgement on the vast majority of claims I encounter.
If you are going to go out of your way to use a false definition for the word religion, and then to accuse atheists of conforming to your false definition, we cannot have a discussion. You are not Humpty Dumpty: you cannot simply make up your own definitions for crucial words and then expect us to take you seriously. (If, out of one side of your mouth you would call atheists religious, would you, out of the other side of your mouth, call a disobedient Christian an atheist?)
Meanwhile, atheism, according to the vast majority of atheistic philosophers,
is simply the lack of a god belief, the lack of religion -- for whatever
reason.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/smithdef.htm
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/smith.htm
Our magazine is willing to defend what is truly our position, but we will not tolerate being told we hold certain positions that we don't hold, and then being asked to defend those positions that we do not hold. Because you insist on accusing us of holding a certain position, and then asking us to defend that position (which position we reject), I am going to insist on terminating this conversation unless you retract your statement that atheism is a religion and that we hold a "doctrine or belief that there is no God."
Our nation was founded by people who had one thing in common, Christianity.
George Washington was not a Christian. Thomas Paine was not a Christian.
Benjamin Franklin was not a Christian. John Adams was not a Christian.
Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian. James Madison was not a Christian.
James Monroe was not a Christian. Whom do you consider the founders of
the United States of America if these men weren't the founders? (The term
"The United States of America" was coined by the anti-Christian
Thomas Paine and endorsed by the anti-Christians Thomas Jefferson and John
Adams and Benjamin Franklin.)
Now it is your turn. Prove what is positive about a belief of denial.
Again, I have no beliefs about gods or the supernatural (Mirriam-Webster's). The lack of a belief is not a belief.
If you wish to claim that one god exists (or twenty) that is your right and your prerogative. All I am doing is listening. If you want me to believe what you say, you'd better be prepared to answer all of my questions without exception and without error. If I catch you in one lie, I get to write you off as a charlatan (and I have noted several falsehoods in each of your letters).
If you cannot answer all of my objections (to the point where they are no longer objections), then I have no business believing you. It is not my responsibility to prove you wrong. You are the one making the claim, not me: if you cannot back up your claim, I can safely ignore you.
Meanwhile, this forum is for atheists. Your letter (your lies) are yet
another example (among many, many examples) of why we discourage theists
from writing to this forum. In fact, if you read our front page
http://www.positiveatheism.org/index.shtml
you would have seen the warning toward the bottom of the page, asking
people not to hold us accountable for things we never said or to defend
positions we do not hold.
Again, if you cannot be truthful, we cannot hold a dialogue. You must retract your (false) statement that Webster's defines atheism as a religion. If you don't, we don't want to hear from you any more. We are serious about this: we have no patience for deliberate falsehood.
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
His counter-argument? He threaten us with "eternity in a condition worse than any human can imagine" -- of course! -- because he knows that he has no persuasive argument, so he must threaten. Again, the "Pascal's Wager" bit ("If I am right...") is nothing more than an attempt to determine truth from error by gambling -- by placing bets on what is true or false rather than by trying to discover what is true or false. "Pascal's Wager" also seeks to determine what is true based upon what you want to be true, rather than to seek out what is or is not true; if it's something you strongly desire (such as that you get to go to the Christian Heaven and you philosophical opponents have to burn forever in the Christian Hell), then it's simply got to be true! |
From: "Hugh Thomas"
To: "Positive Atheism"
Subject: WebMaster: Positive Atheism Index
Date: Thursday, December 16, 1999
Apologies, the definition I gave was from the Random House Dictionary of the English Language, 2nd Edition, Unabridged. Even so, under 3 and 4 of Websters, Atheism is a religion. Your Faith is in the non-existence of God and owe accountability only to yourself and the laws of man. If I am wrong, when this life is over, you and I will wind up in the same place, non-existence. If I am right, I will go to God's reward for eternity and you will spend eternity in a condition worse than any human can imagine. I think I will stick with my faith.
Material by Cliff Walker (including unsigned editorial commentary) is copyright ©1995-2007 by Cliff Walker. Each submission is copyrighted by its writer, who retains control of the work except that by submitting it to Positive Atheism, permission has been granted to use the material or an edited version: (1) on the Positive Atheism web site; (2) in Positive Atheism Magazine; (3) in subsequent works controlled by Cliff Walker or Positive Atheism Magazine (including published or posted compilations). Excerpts not exceeding 500 words are allowed provided the proper copyright notice is affixed. Other use requires permission; Positive Atheism will work to protect the rights of all who submit their writings to us.