Need Help:
E-Mail Debate
With Missionary
Fred Nojd
From: "Fred Nojd"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: an atheist who needs some help in an email debate with a missionary
Date: Sunday, April 02, 2000 10:44 PM
Hello,
my name is Fred Nojd. I maintain a website dealing with bible errancy at
www.netcom.ca/~fnojd/openyoureyes.html.
As a result of my Challenge to Believers page I have an email debate going
on with a missionary. I need some ammunition for the battle. Do you know
where I can find some information on lives that were changed for the better
by the person becoming an atheist? The question was put to me that Christianity
has changed lives for the better what has Atheism ever done for anyone
-- to make them a better father, husband etc. ? I am sure that there are
cases of people becoming better persons after they have discarded their
belief in fables -- I just don't know where to find them. Any ideas? Thanks
for any help you can give me.
Fred
From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Fred Nojd"
Subject: Re: an atheist who needs some help in an email debate with a missionary
Date: Monday, April 03, 2000 2:05 PM
It sounds like you may have allowed them to divert attention from the fact that they have no strong arguments in their favor, and must resort to the pragmatic angle.
First, is believing a lie good for you -- no matter what the result? George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) Irish-born British playwright and a founder of the Fabian Society, said: "The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality" (Preface to "Androcles and the Lion").
Secondly, read the essay "Atheism" by Joseph Lewis (on our website under Historical, Joseph Lewis) and then read some Robert Green Ingersoll: "Declaration of the Free"; "The Liberty of Man, Woman and Child"; "What Infidels Have Done"; "What Would you Substitute for the Bible as a Moral Guide?" (also on our website). Go through our "Quotes" section and start with George Eliot -- but go through every file and look for quotes from people whose lives are vastly superior because of their atheism. (Many of these quotes have been taken from material posted elsewhere on our website.)
Thirdly, let's assume, for a moment, the statement "Ye shall know
them by their fruits" (Mt. 7:16). What are the fruits of organized
Christianity? More genocide, the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Witch
Hunts, the Auto Da Fé, the need for a Reformation, more post-Reformation
genocide and burnings at the stake at the hands of Protestants, the Salem
Witch Trials, the suppression of science (to this day), social repression (to this day),
the suppression of free inquiry (to this day), sexual repression (to this day), moves to abolish birth
control and delivery-room anasthesia, the arrogance of the move to post
the Protestant Ten Commandments in public venues in America -- all because the arguments for their religion cannot stand on thier own merits, so their force it upon us. And I could
go on and on.
Finally, ask what is the nature of the "morality" that religion espouses. Is morality from God? That is, is morality simply what God favors? If so, then what protects us from following the false morality of a god who tells us that it is the right thing to dash children against the stones (Ps. 137:9) or sacrifice virgins (Num. 31:40) or commit ritual genocide (Dt. 3:1-7; Num. 31:1-18; 28-47) or commit ritual mutilation (Gen. 17:9-14) or burn unbelievers (John 15:6; Rev. 17:18) or eat bread defiled with human dung (Ezek. 4:12-15)?
On the other hand, if morality is separate from God, and is something that God himself is subject to, then why do we need God to find out what morality is? If morality simply is, and is not necessarily what God has decided is good, then we should be able to discover right from wrong on our own. This dilemma is described in detail in the new book "What Is Atheism" by Douglas E. Krueger (Prometheus: about $17.00).
From: "Fred Nojd"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Re: an atheist who needs some help in an email debate with a missionary
Date: Monday, April 03, 2000 9:12 PM
Thanks for taking the time and thanks for the advice. I will go through the quotations and Ingersoll essays to see if there is something I can use. The problem is the theist mindset -- what would convince you or me rolls off the theist like water off a duck's back. The problem is to find something they will acknowledge.
Thanks again for your help.
Fred Nojd
From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Fred Nojd"
Subject: Re: an atheist who needs some help in an email debate with a missionary
Date: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 3:58 AM
The problem is the theist mindset -- what would convince you or me rolls off the theist like water off a duck's back. The problem is to find something they will acknowledge.
Most of them won't, this is why I refuse to engage with a theist unless I have an audience who will benefit from the discussion -- or unless the theist agrees to renounce his or her faith should he or she fail to demonstrate his or her claim (I correspondingly agree to convert should the theist make a compelling case for the existence of a particular god).
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Material by Cliff Walker (including unsigned editorial commentary) is copyright ©1995-2006 by Cliff Walker. Each submission is copyrighted by its writer, who retains control of the work except that by submitting it to Positive Atheism, permission has been granted to use the material or an edited version: (1) on the Positive Atheism web site; (2) in Positive Atheism Magazine; (3) in subsequent works controlled by Cliff Walker or Positive Atheism Magazine (including published or posted compilations). Excerpts not exceeding 500 words are allowed provided the proper copyright notice is affixed. Other use requires permission; Positive Atheism will work to protect the rights of all who submit their writings to us.