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From: "Mark Simmons"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: PA-via_Positive_Atheism_Index
Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 1:56 AM

I have been a member of AA for a little over three years now and find it interesting that a few words can hold back so many great minds. Why not just change what you want in the big book keep the parts you find beneficial and deliver that product to your peers. Only problem is that when they got ahold of it, it may not appeal to all of your followers and there may be some that feel it needs revisions or additions. It is always a problem trying to satisfy the masses. But when the masses are ready (drop down the bottomless pit) and can see no way out, possibly a mutation of another sort may occur.

I did not come to AA to stop drinking. I came to AA because my life was going down fast and I could not stop it on my own. I saw the word god in the steps but that did not bother me. I knew it would bring back what I had learned as a child in Catholic school and I had already discounted those teachings as fear based control of the masses. The word god to me was just a word. Just as Allah or Budah bring about an image and the ideals that go with those teachings , this is what the word did to me. If I were an athiest and the word evolution brought ideas to mind that I could feel confident putting my faith in, I would have chosen that as my conception of god, but the idea of evolution probably would not bring about the early teachings of right and wrong and the soul searching to find what I considered "civil" and human responsibilities that I needed to adapt to committ myself to this belief.

These were not unreasonable or what I would consider religious. They were the guiding principles that I needed to attempt to apply in my life to rid myself of some of the basic causes of my drinking. At that time I feel I had no control whatsoever if I drank or not, but if I could curtail some of the behaviors associated with my life style maybe I could gain some self esteem and feel productive again. Over the course of time I have relied on that power and that power was as you call a committment to try to live these principles and more importantly be alert to the self decieving that is at the heart of this disease. After a period of time I have come to the conclusion that whatever works is what is best and the responsibility to find what works is laid upon us at a time when our judgement had not been up to par for some time and making decisions on our lives has been a miserable failure.

The courts don't want to keep us in jail due to the costs involved and the alternative is to set us free to drive under the influence, go back to our families and do g-- knows what or to try whatever they think might work. If there were more alternatives out there I am sure there would have been an accounting and the most successful program would have been favored but alas times were in the hands of AA.

With all the IQ power posting to your site it seems unusual that all of your energy is spent addressing the problem instead of the solution.....a typical sign of an alcoholism.

I'll give you this offer. Prepare a solution to the situation such as AAA AA for the Agnostic and I will feel you are truly trying to help fellow sufferers with the same misgivings of AA. If that is not your purpose then please explain what it is.

Sincerely,
Mark Simmons

From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Mark Simmons"
Subject: Re: PA-via_Positive_Atheism_Index
Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:07 PM

Why not just change what you want in the big book keep the parts you find beneficial and deliver that product to your peers.

Doing this would reduce the "Big Book" to a mere pamphlet -- if that.
 

Only problem is that when they got ahold of it, it may not appeal to all of your followers and there may be some that feel it needs revisions or additions.

I don't have any followers. People are generally smart enough to figure things out on their own. If not, I have nothing to say to those people.
 

I did not come to AA to stop drinking.

Then keep it up. You're invited to tip a Guinness with me on any given Thursday night.
 

I came to AA because my life was going down fast and I could not stop it on my own.

Sure you could -- because you did! When drinking became too costly for you (in personal terms), you made a decision to stop drinking and you pulled it off. And I'll bet it wasn't that hard.

You did it, but you refuse to give yourself credit for it. That's the sad part. I shudder to think that so many people lack the dignity to take credit for their own accomplishments.

Looks like you didn't really need to quit drinking, but that you just needed some religion to rubber-stamp your lack of dignity and self-confidence.
 

I saw the word god in the steps but that did not bother me.

It bothered the hell out of me for two reasons: (1) I was court-ordered into the Twelve Step program, refused on religious grounds to go, and was jailed as a result -- all without the "benefit" of any drug- or alcohol-related charges or convictions. (2) I admit that no such thing as a "God" exists, so that if I were to try to invoke a god for help, I'd be in a world of trouble -- and would be a hypocrite, to boot. I saw that I was on my own, and simply refused to lie about this fact. As an atheist, I hold a high regard for truth, and since I see no gods, it would be a lie for me to go along with the "God" part. Meanwhile, you try working Step Six without a supernatural deity! It doesn't work that way. I'm sorry, I cannot "carry this message" because I think "this message" is essentially flawed -- not only the "God" part but also the disease and powerlessness parts as well.
 

With all the IQ power posting to your site it seems unusual that all of your energy is spent addressing the problem instead of the solution.....a typical sign of an alcoholism.

Maybe I'm "in denial"!

(Heh, heh, heh! Typical anti-intellectual stance -- very common in fundamentalistic religious cults such as the Twelve Step movement: "Nobody's too stupid to work the Steps, but some people are too smart to work the Steps.")

Tell me, what is alcoholism? Tell me the symptoms that are universal to alcoholism, those signs that everyone who is an "alcoholic" will have, and that nobody who is not an "alcoholic" will not have. If you are going to diagnose me with this disease (especially in a public forum, such as Positive Atheism Magazine), you must answer this question. I also want to know your medical credentials. If you cannot do both of these things, please retract this statement and apologize.
 

I'll give you this offer. Prepare a solution to the situation such as AAA AA for the Agnostic and I will feel you are truly trying to help fellow sufferers with the same misgivings of AA.

I don't care what you think or feel.

Besides, why would I want to develop another program, when I have discovered that most people who overcome an addiction do so on their own without any help? Why would I make another program when I have discovered that showing people that they don't need any program is the best I could possibly offer to them?

Besides, AAA is an automobile association.

And besides that, there are groups in most towns called "We Agnostics." It's really much more of the same bait-and-switch, but more vicious because they pretend that it's possible to work the steps without a rescuing deity. You can't. These groups aren't very popular, because most atheists and agnostics don't get far enough to find these groups (as if finding them would do much good). They either become intimidated and feign religion (or actually convert) or they leave.
 

If that is not your purpose then please explain what it is.

You are crude!

Since I cannot answer your trick question -- since your False Dichotomy places me in the either-or situation of your own choosing -- then I am evil, I am not "truly trying to help fellow sufferers with the same misgivings of AA."

Hey! Wake up! AA doesn't work! Only five percent of those who join AA will still be there a year from now! (These are AA's own figures from their Triennial Surveys.) After five years, less than two percent are still there!

This is much worse than chance! AA actually impairs many people's prospect for quitting an addiction. Even the fundamentalist Christian program called "Teen Challenge" has better numbers than AA. And the figure for those who naturally outgrow their problems is much higher than either.

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine

Material by Cliff Walker (including unsigned editorial commentary) is copyright ©1995-2006 by Cliff Walker. Each submission is copyrighted by its writer, who retains control of the work except that by submitting it to Positive Atheism, permission has been granted to use the material or an edited version: (1) on the Positive Atheism web site; (2) in Positive Atheism Magazine; (3) in subsequent works controlled by Cliff Walker or Positive Atheism Magazine (including published or posted compilations). Excerpts not exceeding 500 words are allowed provided the proper copyright notice is affixed. Other use requires permission; Positive Atheism will work to protect the rights of all who submit their writings to us.