Internet Chat-Room Decorum -- 'Positive Atheism' Style Johan Grahn (Forum) (7-00)

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Internet Chat-Room Decorum
-- 'Positive Atheism' Style

See also: On Dan Jarvis, And Hovind's 300 Creationist Lies by Johan Grahn
See also: Discussing Atheism With Others from the Positive Atheism FAQ
Suggest Some More Chat-Room Etiquette

Here it is: our attempt to develop the "Positive Atheism" flavor of proper decorum when discussing atheism in Internet chat rooms. Please read these suggestions and comment on them. We will look over the results and post what we like (or maybe all of it, you never know). Eventually, we may develop an official list of Internet Chat-Room Decorum -- "Positive Atheism" Style!

You are invited to browse the "Discussing Atheism With Others" section of our FAQ file. If you use chat rooms and see some points in our FAQ file that are particularly pertinent to the chat-room scene, feel free to bring them to this discussion and tell us your experiences.

From: Johan Grahn
To: Positive Atheism
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 12:31 PM
Subject: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section

= = = [snip] = = =

I never "preach" in Christian chatrooms or send mails to religious homepages unless they publish outrage lies to further an agenda. I DO chat in atheist newsgroups and if religious people enter I try to make them think before they leave. I also notice that I at this point am rambling and I shall therefore finish this letter.

= = = [snip] = = =

Suggest Some More Chat-Room Etiquette

From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Johan Grahn"
Subject: Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Monday, July 03, 2000 2:33 PM

= = = [snip] = = =

Methinks you are not rambling. You are here putting into practice some of the suggested core values of "Positive Atheism."

This is very important, and I could only wish that I had known these values when I used to go into chat rooms several years ago. All I can do now is hope that other atheists will learn from your stated values and set a better example: I am tired of answering to other atheists' "crimes" when it is not me who is spiteful and vindictive. However, the accusation that many atheists are spiteful and vindictive is a just one, and the activities in the chat rooms don't help our situation any.

In fact, if you would like to come up with a rough draft of your "Chat-Room Etiquette," I will comment on it and send both out to our list. Perhaps we could come up with a final version of "Chat Room Etiquette" -- Positive Atheism style -- and popularize it. Gaud nose I have made every mistake in the book when it comes to chat rooms (both atheistic and Twelve Step) and this is one way I can redeem myself of my past sins!

= = = [snip] = = =

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine

Suggest Some More Chat-Room Etiquette

From: "Johan Grahn"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 11:27 AM

Cliff!

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, and it was quick too. I hope you had some time celebrating your independence day.

I picked the chatroom I'm currently active in for mainly two reasons:

1: It's not too large, making it possible "getting to know" the people in there. They feel like real friends to me even though we live worlds and cultures apart.
2: Most importantly, I've seen no insults, no mudslinging and no denouncing. Only solid argumentation and nice behaviour. OK, from time to time we tend to get a little sarcastic but we are only humans and we mean no harm. I think you know the feeling, some guy comes in sreeming and raving about "the second law of thermodynamics... blah, blah.." Being an engineer, I studied thermodynamics for a year and it becomes tiresome to debate the subject with someone who doesn't even know what it is. Sometimes, however, I get really scared when I read the messages on some of the larger chat groups. Don't people have any courtesy anymore??? This is equally true for both theists and atheists.

My proposed list of "chat room etiquette" would be as follows:

1: Most importantly, never write to someone who doesn't want to be part of a debate. Someone's personal views are sacred to them, and if they do not want to change them, we have no right to force such a change. If we did, we'd be no better than a fundamentalist sect.
2: Always be courteous and open to new ideas, never insult people since it only hurts and angers.
3: Be truthful, never invent "facts" to win an argument. If your opponent does, call him or her on it and if she or he apologizes, drop it.
4: Do not try to "win" your opponent over. Be happy if you can make him or her think. In the religion-no religion debate, making both sides think is the most important step.
5: Try to follow the rules of a debate: stay on the subject, answer direct questions if possible and try to be as honest in your opinions as you can.
6: Never, ever try to deliberately "hurt" anyone. I have had several opportunities to strike a real low blow on someone after telling me about their personal experiences of Jesus, etc. Resist the temptation and just state your opinion and why you don't think your opponent's argument is valid.
7: In the words of Ingersoll, "Man or woman are the highest titles that can be bestowed a person." Remember this, your opponent may have a differing view than you but in the end he or she is a human and is worth no less, nor more than yourself.

I realise that some of these rules are redundant and that I've probably missed a few but I wrote them of the cuff while being somewhat hung over so I hope you'll find them usable anyway.

Johan Grahn

Suggest Some More Chat-Room Etiquette

From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Johan Grahn"
Subject: Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 12:38 PM

Here it is!
http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9634.htm

I would add to #1 the notion that we really have no business arguing against the validity of theism in theists' chat rooms -- unless they have made it clear that this is the topic at hand. We can and should, however, discuss such socio-political viewpoints as separationism, though always (hopefully) from an angle that anybody -- theist or atheist -- can appreciate.

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine

Suggest Some More Chat-Room Etiquette

From: "Bob Southwell"
To: "'Positive Atheism'" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: RE: Forum: Internet Chat-Room Decorum -- 'Positive Atheism' Style?
Date: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 5:34 PM

Thanks Cliff,

I think that was an excellent article.

Bob.

Suggest Some More Chat-Room Etiquette

From: "Pieczul, Pawel"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: RE: Forum: Internet Chat-Room Decorum -- 'Positive Atheism' Style?
Date: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 12:54 AM

Johan's initial list looks very much like Bertrand Russell's 'Liberal's Decalogue' [mirrored in box below].

But to make the discussion sensible and on track shouldn't both sides finally respect the same rules?

Would it ever be possible to make a dogma-follower discuss as a liberal? Perhaps further discussion might then appear unnecessary.

Paul.

A Liberal Decalogue
by Bertrand Russell
(from The Autobiography of Bertrand Russell, 1944-1969, pp. 71-2)

Perhaps the essence of the Liberal outlook could be summed up in a new decalogue, not intended to replace the old one but only to supplement it. The Ten Commandments that, as a teacher, I should wish to promulgate, might be set forth as follows:

1. Do not feel absolutely certain of anything.
2. Do not think it worth while to proceed by concealing evidence, for the evidence is sure to come to light.
3. Never try to discourage thinking for you are sure to succeed.
4. When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority, for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.
5. Have no respect for the authority of others, for there are always contrary authorities to be found.
6. Do not use power to suppress opinions you think pernicious, for if you do the opinions will suppress you.
7. Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.
8. Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent that in passive agreement, for, if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter.
9. Be scrupulously truthful, even if the truth is inconvenient, for it is more inconvenient when you try to conceal it.
10. Do not feel envious of the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise, for only a fool will think that it is happiness."

Suggest Some More Chat-Room Etiquette

From: "Grahn, Johan"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Chat-Room_Etiquette_9634
Date: Friday, July 14, 2000 7:52 AM

Pawel Pieczul wrote:

But to make the discussion sensible and on track shouldn't both sides finally respect the same rules?

Yes, of course! This doesn't always happen though and the question is what to do then. Gandhi uesd his non-violence techniques against violent people and it worked even though the price was high. Our stakes are not as high so we don't have to pay an equally high price.

I would suggest that you use the technique Cliff, and that I, more recently, use too. Just finish the conversation. If the conversation is on your turf, tell them not to write again and if they do, block their e-mail. If it's on their turf, explain why you are terminating the discussion and simply leave. There are enough sensible religions people around.

I have also noticed that, if the "rules" are followed, the religious person starts following them too, more or less on automatic. It is hard to insult someone who is courteous at all times.

Suggest Some More Chat-Room Etiquette

From: "Huascar Terra do Valle"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Re: Forum: Internet Chat-Room Decorum -- 'Positive Atheism' Style?
Date: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 6:18 PM

To Cliff Walker:

Johan Grahn's list of chat-room decorum is timely and wise. I take the chance to suggest a little change in the 5th item:

5: Try to follow the rules of a debate: stay on the subject, by all means avoid "ad hominem" arguments, answer direct questions if possible and try to be as honest in your opinions as you can.

Huascar.

Suggest Some More Chat-Room Etiquette

From: "Gijsbers V.A."
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: RE: Forum: Internet Chat-Room Decorum -- 'Positive Atheism' Style?
Date: Thursday, July 06, 2000 3:08 AM

I suppose were talking forums here (and not chat-rooms in the traditional sense).

My proposed list of rules (I just wrote something down):

1. Only debate with people who want to debate. A forum is perfect here because it's impossible to force others to read your topic. Respect it if other people tire of the debate and go away.
2. Be always truthful. Never lie. One lie, and your credibility is gone.
3. If you've made a mistake, admit it. If your opponent destroys one of your points, acknowledge it.
4. Never, never, insult somebody.
5. It is your task to tell other atheists what they've done wrong if they break these rules. Theists should comment on the behavior of their fellow theists. Only comment on the behavior of your 'opponents' if they break the rules really big.
6. Answer questions people ask you. Do not avoid difficult questions. In return, you can tell people they shouldn't avoid your questions.
7. Try to stay on-topic. If you want to discuss something else, make a new topic.
8. You want people to like you: make a joke now and then, be nice to others.
9. Use sound reason. Tell others when they use unsound reason, and why it is unsound.
10. If in spite of rule 1 to 9 people behave badly towards you: Leave and find a new chatroom.

Victor

Visit me:
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~gijsbers

"The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round,
   for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more
   faith in a shadow than in the church."
          -- Magellan

"The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more
   to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than
   a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and
   dangerous quality."
          -- George Bernard Shaw

"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as
erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin."
-- Cardinal Bellarmine, during the trial of Galileo in 1615.

Suggest Some More Chat-Room Etiquette

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