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From: "Kay F Gibbs"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Alcoholics Anonymous is a Religion
Date: Sunday, October 08, 2000 9:28 AM

I want to respond to an unsigned letter stating AA is a religious group.

It was not originally intended to be that. What Bill really did was find a way to dump his baggage onto someone by finding another alcoholic(passing it on), as he didn't have children and was sort of STUCK psychologically. Then he came up with the 4th step which was suppose to cleanse the guilty conscience, which all is much the way Psychotherapy works, or confessing to your father or mother. Supposedly making amends to the injured person helps bring you back to a right relationship with man. The 4th step is supposed to also open you to a Higher Consciousness". This all really does work. I am living proof. I no longer have the "compulsion" to drink. For me drinking was a learned coping skill. Instead of dealing with problems, guilt, etc, I drank, but they didn't go away. I attended AA meeting for 10 years. After my first 6 months of sobriety, I started working the steps, even though I didn't purposefully start out to do that, by confessing a matter to my sponsor, then admitting it to the individual. It resolved the matter temporarily. This is before I ever read the Big Book. I had been doing it most of my life but never related it to the 12 steps. But it was necessary for me to go deeper in a more structured setting, to correct my thinking, which required the assistance of a trained therapist.

In the beginning I needed to believe in something greater than myself, because I didn't have much faith in myself and certainly didn't put faith or trust in anyone else. Without that, I wouldn't have made it, I most likely would never have darkened the doors again, if they had said, we don't believe in GOD here. Since then, I have continued to write, keep a journal, etc. I have grown in my awareness and understanding. It hasn't made me trust others any more than I did but it has confirmed, for me, that all people should not be trusted, unlike the way I was when I was a teenager when I trusted everybody. That sounds confusing. When I was a teenager I trusted everybody. There was a sense of a common bond between myself and my peers. Then when I went away to college, it all changed. This was the real world and I had difficulty dealing with it. I was taken advantage of, sexually assaulted, etc. My drinking increased and my life decreased. By the time I got to AA, I didn't trust anyone, not even myself.

Anyway, I fell into the same pattern of thinking in AA. I trusted all of the AA members, because we supposedly had a common bond, staying sober. I soon learned that many AA members were not to be trusted either, just because they are trying to stay sober. I stayed sober for three consecutive years and that was it.

There were things going on I was cognitive of yet. Finally after ten years I quit going to AA. I started reading a lot of psychology. Carl Jung has helped me the most. I have learned the difference between being a spiritual person and being a religious person. I'm not talking about being a monk or nun or anything like that, I'm just talking about right living with my fellow man, but I also have to guard against the man who doesn't give a damn.

So, even though AA seems like a religious organization, it is not. My first sponsor told me I could use a coffee cup as my higher power if I wanted to. The 2nd step states that you only come to believe a POWER GREATER than YOURSELF is required, and in essence that is your UNCONSCIOUS MIND, not GOD. It is the Unconscious mind that holds the key to who you really are and it is the 12 steps that really do the trick, not the members and not what you believe in. If you keep working the 4th - 11th steps, you will see results, provided you are as honest as you can be with yourself at the time.

Kay F Gibbs

From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Kay F Gibbs"
Subject: Alcoholics Anonymous is a Religion
Date: Sunday, October 08, 2000 2:33 PM

AA is a faith-healing religion and a coercive religious cult. Not only that, AA doesn't work for the vast majority of those who try it.

(Although I avoid using the word cult as much as possible, I will use the term here as it is used by most of the people who do use it: according to these definitions, AA fits almost every criterion I have ever heard for what constitutes a cult.)

New York State's highest court, on June 11, 1996, ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous "engages in religious activity and religious proselytization" in the case Griffin v. Coughlin. "A fair reading of the fundamental AA doctrinal writings discloses that their dominant theme is unequivocally religious," the court said. "Adherence to the AA fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and religious proselytization."
http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/nycase.htm

AA is not only a religion, it is a religious cult by ever definition of the word. I wrote the original outline for Jack Trimpey's classic article on the subject: "Alcoholics Anonymous: Of Course it's a Cult!" The outline was based upon the 17 criteria for a religious cult laid out in (charter Positive Atheism subscriber) Chaz Bufe's book, Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?

Though Bufe concluded "neither," I concluded differently when taking into consideration the coercion brought on through institutionalized AA. If all we had were regular AA, I would agree with Bufe (as this, I think, is what Bufe had in mind). However, my involvement was not with regular AA but through a court order. It was this court order to undergo religious instruction and participate in religious ritual that turned AA into a cult.

If AA would stop signing those court attendance slips, I would respect AA as a private organization. But until they issue a recommendation to the groups to refuse to sign the slips, AA is culpable in the government and industry institutionalization of its own program, and subjects itself to being deemed a coercive religious cult with a captive audience of impaired people -- a faith-healing religion that doesn't work for over 95 percent of the people who try it (according to AA's own Triennial Surveys).

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
people with no reason to believe

From: "Kay F Gibbs"
To: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Alcoholics Anonymous is a Religion
Date: Monday, October 09, 2000 8:56 AM

I suppose the group takes on the personality of the majority who are involved. Fortunately for me and my personal experience, I never felt like I was involved in a cult or religious organization, and most of my sponsors were not religious people, they were hippies and yuppies, who got caught up in too much of a good thing with either drugs or alcohol. Some went on to get involved in EST training and The Forum, where personal responsibility and accountability were central issues. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience in your involvement. AA is really just the beginning of a life long journey into the self in my opinion, if you have the COURAGE to look inside. The cure is in the STEPS, not praying the Lord's Prayer or reading a Meditation of the day, etc. You can't blame AA entirely for one not maintaining sobriety. No one ever tied me down and forced me to pray the Lord's Prayer or to believe in any God. Nor did they tell me I wouldn't be the victim of someone's cruelty. That's Life! It is my responsibility to manage my own life, to avoid what is harmful and be apart of what is constructive and productive. Personal choices. No one ever told me I had to stay with AA for the rest of my life or believe everything I read in the Big Book. I was as free to not return as I was to go back every night. Luckily I had the sense to know when to leave and never go back. And, fortunately I didn't let my negative experiences keep me from using the 12 steps to my advantage. The one thing they did tell me was to "KEEP AN OPEN MIND"! Thank my higher mind, I did.

As for cults...there are lots of cults...Christianity is a Cult...Democracy and our Political parties are cults...We have all kinds of leaders in nearly every faction telling us what we ought to believe or seducing us into believing what they believe or dumping their sick beliefs on us. And every Cult will have its SCAPEGOAT. The Jews had Jesus.

Faith healing? My experience in AA never led me to believe I was going to be healed by FAITH. It was pointed out to me, quite early, that I would have to WORK my ass off to stay sober. WORK on myself and that is what I do. I certainly didn't wait around for someone to do it for me. I joined AA in September of 1979, and in March of 1980 I was in therapy dealing with issues that were critical to my staying sober. My problem became an issue of money to continue my therapy because my insurance company refused to pay. There's another cult for you, the insurance company. Even the field of Psychiatry can be considered a cult. We are bombarded with individuals and groups that want to tell us what to do, how to spend our money, what to believe, etc. Even the Yuppies are a cult.

I never looked upon Bill Wilson as an authoritarian, leader or anything of the kind. He was simply the man who came up with the idea to start the group. The reason they are not involved in money making and are SELF -SUPPORTING is a perspicuous issue. The primary purpose is for its members to STAY SOBER. AA is not the people who attend but the 12 steps. The success of the 12 steps has been proven repeatedly. You cannot judge the success of AA by those who do not follow through with their work.

Signing a slip acknowledging the attendance of a court ordered individual in no way delegates responsibility to AA for that individuals sobriety. Each individual is responsible for his own sobriety, the members simply support each other in their efforts, at least most members do. As I said, I had to weed through some bad seeds myself. Yes, I do agree it is culpable when its members take advantage of those with impaired thinking, such as myself, but new members are warned of most bad influences as I was. Still, there are those who are as cunning as alcohol.

Again, I emphasize the crux of AA as the 12 steps. You can take the 12 steps, create your own support system and stay sober.

From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Kay F Gibbs"
Subject: Alcoholics Anonymous is a Religion
Date: Monday, October 09, 2000 11:10 AM

First, please turn off the Return Receipt function when sending e-mail to us. We get over 100 e-mails a day, and getting rid of the (just clicking on them) gets real old real fast. So, we will be asking people who do this to please stop, and then will begin ignoring letters from those who have been asked but choose to continue.

I don't care about hippies and yuppies practicing religion in the privacy of their own group. This is not what I'm after. I have no problem with people gathering to practice religion.

Where I draw the line is when the government forces people to practice religion -- either willingly or unwillingly. If you had read my previous letter, you would have seen this very clearly, as I have been honing my presentation of this opinion for twelve years and one month now.

I also get a little bugged when people insist that AA is not a religion when we all know damn well that it is a religion. I do not care for that level of dishonesty which will call a thing what it is not in order to bring credibility to that thing. I particularly despise when people say that AA is not a religion because the stakes are so high in this game that they choose to play. If it were a matter of even being allowed to exist (for example, in Russia) then I could see mincing your words and coming up with a concept to substitute for "religion." But, in the case here, we are talking about AA using the government as its recruting arm and getting away with it because "were not religious, we're spiritual" or worse, "we're not a religion, we're a self-help group."

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to people with no reason to believe

From: "Kay F Gibbs"
To: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Alcoholics Anonymous is a Religion
Date: Monday, October 09, 2000 9:57 AM

I'd like to clarify something too, and give credit where credit is due...after addressing an issue with my sponsor, she was the one who suggested I go to therapy as the issue was beyond her ability to help me. she didn't try to PLAY GOD with me, professing to have all the answers. I WAS fortunate to have encountered the people I did, in AA.

Kay

From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Kay F Gibbs"
Subject: Alcoholics Anonymous is a Religion
Date: Monday, October 09, 2000 11:11 AM

Of course she had the answers for you. Her answer was that you needed to be in therapy.

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
people with no reason to believe

From: "Kay F Gibbs"
To: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Alcoholics Anonymous is a Religion
Date: Monday, October 09, 2000 12:45 PM

Well, I did read your letter and am looking for the court case you spoke of...but I still stand on what my experience has been with AA and it was in no way religious. What I needed was a way to deal with those who would subject others to their cruelty, or more poetically, a way to deal with assholes with closed minds and big fat chips on their shoulders, that even the mightiest earthquake couldn't knock off. Your opinion is closed minded, unfounded, and prejudiced by something else, not your experience with AA. My spiritual experiences have not unveiled some unseen or unknown supernatural being, but simply a greater awareness of myself and the real world. AA boasts no Saints or Religious leaders.

From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Kay F Gibbs"
Subject: Alcoholics Anonymous is a Religion
Date: Monday, October 09, 2000 7:43 PM

For you to judge AA as "not religious" based upon your limited experience is the fallacy called "Statistics of Small Numbers." I will not honor your attempt to write here and portray AA as "not religious" based upon such a limited perspective because my failure to point out your doing this would show a lack of candor on your part.

I would wager that my experience is much broader: I have worked directly with thousands of people in person and perhaps as many as ten thousand over the telephone and the Internet, and their most common reason for calling me was because they saw AA as being religious. But, even my slightly less limited experience does not hold a candle to that of the New York high court (which came up with a legal description of AA's religiosity) and the United States Supreme Court (which, after reviewing the findings of the New York court, refused to contradict it).

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
people with no reason to believe

From: "Kay F Gibbs"
To: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Alcoholics Anonymous is a Religion
Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:21 PM

Honey, you aren't old enough to have worked with that many people!

From: "Kay F Gibbs"
To: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Alcoholics Anonymous is a Religion
Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:25 PM

You really DON"T HAVE IT or GET IT! I Feel sorry for such small, closed minds! AA is NOT, I repeat is not a RELIGION I would stand on that in any court room!

From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "kayfgibbs"
Subject: Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section "Alcoholics Anonymous is a Religion"
Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 4:58 PM

Yes, tens of thousands is, I fear, way too low a figure when describing people who have directly encountered my views. I looked up the statistics for my "Recovery Watch" section, and this section has been hit 470 times since the first of the month (10 days). Word gets out. Add to this years of meetings, years of lectures, years of staffing hotlines, and years on the Internet and on the boards at AOL and elsewhere (and hanging in bars, for gaud sakes), plus private and posted e-mail dialogues.

I've been at this for twelve years, now, without a vacation, and you have the audacity to make a remark like that!

Thus, we have placed a filter on our account which will any move any further e-mail from your account into our "Abuse" folder, which we monitor periodically. We do not tolerate falsehood and false accusations, especially when made for the purpose of casting doubt upon a specific philosophical position (the ad hominem). Tarnish my credibility just to cast doubt on a philosophy held by thousands? Nope! Especially not when the numbers I gave you were deliberately low.

But, this is common, especially from the Twelve Step camp, which is singularly the most vicious and untruthful group of people who have written specifically to this forum, even more so than those who are Christian but not Twelve Steppers. You can see this easily by browsing through our Letters section: all the Twelve Step pieces are conspicuously marked as such in the Index.

Have a nice life. As far as we can tell, it's the only one we get.

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
     people with no reason to believe

Material by Cliff Walker (including unsigned editorial commentary) is copyright ©1995-2006 by Cliff Walker. Each submission is copyrighted by its writer, who retains control of the work except that by submitting it to Positive Atheism, permission has been granted to use the material or an edited version: (1) on the Positive Atheism web site; (2) in Positive Atheism Magazine; (3) in subsequent works controlled by Cliff Walker or Positive Atheism Magazine (including published or posted compilations). Excerpts not exceeding 500 words are allowed provided the proper copyright notice is affixed. Other use requires permission; Positive Atheism will work to protect the rights of all who submit their writings to us.