'Peace Of Mind'
Is A Delusion
Tom Bratcher
From: Tom Bratcher
To: Cliff Walker
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 1:11 AM
Subject: hello
Hello Cliff,
I happened across your web site while looking for Thomas Paine's article "Age of Reason." I most recently became interested in reading "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine when it was referenced during a PBS production called "Liberty" which aired July 4th. The "Common Sense" paper was very interesting and enlightening and I found Mr. Paine to be very cognizant and he articulated his points of view colorfully. I could perceive his contempt for the British form of government and for the religi-gencia of the time.
My viewing of Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason" became abbreviated though when I found his recollection and perception of biblical documentation wanting. I wanted to be able to respond to him and engage him in dialogue. However time and his expiration seem to conflict with that desire. He appears to have been a "reasonable" fellow and one who would entertain reasonable dialogue. He writes in this paper, "I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life." However, he does say, "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any other church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." He appears to believe in a "one God", yet he does not believe in a creed professed and practiced by these mentioned churches; a common theme I've noticed among people I have grown up with. These people, whom are very intelligent, have found it difficult to put faith or belief in religion they've grown up with partly due to their observation of hypocrisy within the formats of religion they have participated or they have witnessed inconsistencies in those formats. These people, of which I have referred are generally refugees of the Protestant and Roman churches. When one senses error in a system, it is a challenge for that person to view anything else of that format without being on guard or prejudiced.
I, however, have bought into the Judeo-Christian scheme. I will not try to persuade you with biblical rhetoric. I would like to share with you no other than my first person experience. I asked for God to give me discernment, and He has. I have asked for Him to make known to me the black and white of this world of gray and He has revealed many things to me. It is difficult to describe the term "renewing of your mind" as described in the New Testament except to say that you don't think like you used to, and you don't like to entertain the thoughts that the rest of the world basically uses for entertainment. I have a personal relationship with the Creator thanks to the obedience of the man, Jesus Christ. Do I care if you believe? Only from a brother's perspective. My salvation is not dependent on whether you believe. Thomas Paine seemed to believe and hope "for happiness beyond this life." My hope is that you would not shout so loud about your unbelief as not to hear His "still small voice."
I would like to share some Good News and some bad news. Of course this of biblical content and so consider the source.
The Good News is:
'Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one gets to go to the Father except through Him.' John 14:6
The bad news:
"...wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many." Matthew 7:13
I do know from experience how He has changed my heart (my mind) and how I think differently about things as mentioned in Romans 12:2. However, like Paul said, 'I still mess up." Romans 7:15,16,19 (paraphrased)
I would like to comment on the slogan "Discussing the history, ethics, and philosophy of atheism promotes liberty, responsibility and peace of mind." If a mother took her child from the father of the child so as the father never had contact with the child, the child would never really know who his father was. The mother may tell her child of the father or withhold information pertaining to the child's father. As the child becomes a man he may choose to believe he did not have a father. He would not have to address this vacancy in his life and he may have "peace of mind" by relinquishing this subject. And being free of this uncomfortable subject, he may sense a liberty. However, the father may still desire for this child (now an adult) to know how much he loves him and misses him. This father may still want to have a relationship and dialogue with his son.
The fact that one would have peace of mind and/or liberty in unbelief, may be of comfort to he whom would like to quiet his mind of the opposing forces in battle for soul and mind. There is a battle going on. The enemy has deluded many of a fruitless meaning of life; a life only made bearable to those deluded, by the gratification of wants and desires in this physical reality that we perceive.
However, we are spiritual creatures. Spiritual creatures currently bound with the limitations of time and space in these tangible bodies we occupy which are our vehicles in this temporal world. And as spiritual creatures, we have been encourage to "store up" our "treasures in heaven" where moth or thief cannot take them away.
My purpose for sending this email was not to try to convert you to a belief. My intention though is to plant a seed. There is a Father that it is said about Him that He will neither leave you nor forsake you. He says knock and the door will be opened, seek and you will find. You may initiate this dialogue with Him. You can talk directly to Him. 'Course, it does require a little faith...the size of a seed.
You may have peace of mind and liberty in your unbelief.
I can tell you honestly that there is peace in knowing there is more than just belief.
Sincerely,
Tom Bratcher
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From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Tom Bratcher"
Subject: Re: hello
Date: Saturday, July 28, 2001 8:03 AM
Your writing is somewhat difficult to understand. Perhaps you could distill the gist of what you have to say by recasting your question.
My purpose for sending this email was not to try to convert you to a belief.
Why do I have such a hard time believing you?
However, we are spiritual creatures.
I'm not sure I understand what spiritual means.
I wanted to be able to respond to him and engage him in dialogue. However time and his expiration seem to conflict with that desire.
If this means what I think it does, yes: I'd like to have been able to talk with Paine myself. In fact, if I could talk with someone from history, but was allowed to pick only one person, Paine would be the one, for sure.
'Course, it does require a little faith...the size of a seed.
So, let me get this straight: I must already believe in order to be given the means or the justification to believe?
I asked for God to give me discernment, and He has.
Let me get this straight: You wanted to be as open-minded as possible on the very question of God's existence -- to start off with as clean a slate as possible to give you the highest likelihood of finding the truth of the matter -- so you asked God to help you decide whether or not God exists? Does this not already prejudice your research in favor of concluding that a God exists?
How is this any more reliable than asking the Republican Party if a certain Democratic Party candidate is on the up and square?
The enemy has deluded many of a fruitless meaning of life; a life only made bearable to those deluded, by the gratification of wants and desires in this physical reality that we perceive.
How do you know that the enemy does not consist of those forces of darkness who continue to hunt me down in their attempts to convince me of the truthfulness of the Christian religion?
How do you know that the Christian religion has not deluded you into a life of meaninglessness by tricking you into giving your sense of self-worth over to an ancient fable?
When one senses error in a system, it is a challenge for that person to view anything else of that format without being on guard or prejudiced.
Similarly, many who defend a proposition for which there is no defense will resort to exclaiming that this or that person simply did not practice the creed properly. Such people would never admit to the system itself being flawed. When this happens, there is no way to test the system itself. Any flaw will be cited as an example of someone not working the system properly.
This error is most apparent in the Twelve Step program. If somebody does not stay clean and sober, they tell us that this person simply did not work the Steps properly. There is no room for the program itself to be wrong.
If a mother took her child from the father of the child ...
Your little analogy, typical of all the Christian analogies I've ever heard, breaks down when we try to work it through as one would do with any analogy. This one presupposes that the father-figure is still alive. If we had evidence that the father was trying to contact the child, such as court proceedings seeking to open up the adoption records, invoices from private investigators who tried to find the kid, even registration with the natural parent search agencies, then we could conclude that a father seeks to contact a child. In my (real life) case, there are no records to indicate that any biological father seeks to find me. So I must conclude that he either has died or does not care or respects the original agreement of the adoption, which called for privacy and a new life for both of us. Metaphorically, no God has chosen to make Himself known to me (despite diligent searching on my part), so I can safely assume one of the following: (a) He does not exist (atheism); (b) He does not care (some forms of Deism); or (c) any divine plan that may exist precludes the type of "fellowship" that Christians describe (some forms of Deism).
It is difficult to describe the term "renewing of your mind" as described in the New Testament
That is a pretty good way to describe the experience one undergoes while attending one of Rev. Sun Myung Moon's weekend retreats. It's a grand way to describe what happens if you chant the Hare Krsna mantra all day, every day for a few weeks. It's precisely what happens when one abandons their own autonomy and submits to the dogma of the Christian religion. The only question, really, is whether this "renewing of your mind" is a good thing. I think this is not a good thing at all, that the default state of humanity is much more desirable.
However, like Paul said, 'I still mess up." Romans 7:15,16,19 (paraphrased)
Paraphrasing is convenient. Is this why you tale a passage describing the process leading up to salvation and apply it to your situation after salvation?
He appears to have been a "reasonable" fellow
You enclose the word reasonable in quotation marks. Does this mean that you intend to convey a sense of irony, rather than the commonly accepted use of that word (as indicated by your use of the quotation marks)?
These people, whom are very intelligent...
I still have trouble with who and whom myself, so when in doubt I simply recast the sentence to avoid these words altogether.
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
people with no reason to believe
From: "Tom Bratcher"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: hello
Cliff,
First I must address the use of this analogy of the father and son senario. I have not met you before and I did not know of your circumstances yet I used an analogy that hit close to home for you. I have found that coincidences like these are not by chance.
I have read and I have noticed, from personal experiences in conversations with others, that people tend to view God (our heavenly Father) usually with the glasses of perspective we have fashioned with the experiences we've had with our earthly father. I apologize for what may appear as a lack of sensitivity with your circumstance.
I did start my journey trying to seek a relationship with our heavenly Father from a preconceived notion that there was one. I did the things that the New Testament encouraged, like knocking (figuratively) and seeking and talking to Him (in a prayer type conversation)(yet I talk to Him like I would anyone else)('course with the respect due the Creator of the universe)(but also like a Dad). I know that such a conversation would appear (to someone with the preconceived notion there wasn't a Father in heaven) as foolishness.
My purpose for sending this email was not to try to convert you to a belief.
Why do I have such a hard time believing you?
Well, you have admitted that you have a challenge with belief :) The next sentence after this one said that I wanted to plant a seed. Of course fruition of that action would be that you may know our heavenly Father and have a relationship with Him.
However, we are spiritual creatures.
I'm not sure I understand what spiritual means.
We are spiritual (ethereal, or of vapor/breath) beings who communicate via our emotional/mental ability and carried out through our physical actions. We spiritual beings are currently bound in our physical bodies to the limitations of time, space, width, depth, and height. The Creator of these dimensions could of course interject himself into His creation if he wished, however He would normally be outside of these dimensions (from our perspective). Of course that would require dimensions that we may not be aware of, yet.
[Redundantly quoted material removed.]
'Course, it does require a little faith...the size of a seed.
So, let me get this straight: I must already believe in order to be given the means or the justification to believe?
No...no. You would have to have a little faith to begin. Not necessarily belief. For instance...I may tell you that if you call a 1-800# and give them a password, that they would send you $10,000.
You may not believe me, but...you might make the call anyway.
You might not believe that what I told you was true. However, you may think that I believe it's true. From your experience of what you have perceived as truth, you may infer that I was telling you something that I truly believe. Or you may not...
However, I may have actually made the call. I may have already made the call and deposited the check. And what you perceive as my belief, is not only belief...but knowledge.
You would not need to believe it was true to make the call, only a little faith in what I said may be true.
I asked for God to give me discernment, and He has.
Let me get this straight: You wanted to be as open-minded as possible on the very question of God's existence -- to start off with as clean a slate as possible to give you the highest likelihood of finding the truth of the matter -- so you asked God to help you decide whether or not God exists? Does this not already prejudice your research in favor of concluding that a God exists?
Pardon me, I apologize, I have never questioned His existence. I merely asked my heavenly Father for things he could provide and He has given them to me. I know you may feel that my next statement is a "copout". I don't think that I can prove to you there is a God, I can just tell you of my experience with Him; He has changed my heart. Yah, you may experience a change of mind through the eastern philosophies, however I'm talking about a relationship. And that may seem hokey.
The enemy has deluded many of a fruitless meaning of life; a life only made bearable to those deluded, by the gratification of wants and desires in this physical reality that we perceive.
How do you know that the enemy does not consist of those forces of darkness who continue to hunt me down in their attempts to convince me of the truthfulness of the Christian religion?
How do you know that the Christian religion has not deluded you into a life of meaninglessness by tricking you into giving your sense of self-worth over to an ancient fable?
You know Cliff, there are a bunch of so-called "Christians" in name only who are "hell-bent" on hunting down those who claim to be something else to score some sort of heavenly brownie points(which they won't). You know, I lean toward an argumentative personality in the "natural" (a term Christians use for their natural inclination and not that of a Christ-like behavior.) I would have really liked to engaged Thomas Paine on his points of contention with the Bible. He had a belief in God, however he could not line himself up with any organized religion. I can agree with him on the organized religion thing. I'll only talk about those of Christianity in that 98% to 99.44% are off the mark. However, that does not invalidate the existence of God and His gift of salvation available to us through the obedience of His Son Jesus Christ.
When one senses error in a system, it is a challenge for that person to view anything else of that format without being on guard or prejudiced.
Similarly, many who defend a proposition for which there is no defense will resort to exclaiming that this or that person simply did not practice the creed properly. Such people would never admit to the system itself being flawed. When this happens, there is no way to test the system itself. Any flaw will be cited as an example of someone not working the system properly.
The majority of the organized formats of Christianity are flawed to some extent.
This error is most apparent in the Twelve Step program. If somebody does not stay clean and sober, they tell us that this person simply did not work the Steps properly. There is no room for the program itself to be wrong.
There are of course people who make choices that take them on a path that is not one in which they can fellowship with their heavenly Father. However, as humans we do make mistakes and infallibility is not absent from the church (as much as the Roman Catholic Church would like to believe)(the RCC is responsible for the biggest flaws in Christendom of which most of the other formats of Christianity have followed out of default or design.)
If a mother took her child from the father of the child ...
Your little analogy, typical of all the Christian analogies I've ever heard, breaks down when we try to work it through as one would do with any analogy. This one presupposes that the father-figure is still alive. If we had evidence that the father was trying to contact the child, such as court proceedings seeking to open up the adoption records, invoices from private investigators who tried to find the kid, even registration with the natural parent search agencies, then we could conclude that a father seeks to contact a child. In my (real life) case, there are no records to indicate that any biological father seeks to find me. So I must conclude that he either has died or does not care or respects the original agreement of the adoption, which called for privacy and a new life for both of us. Metaphorically, no God has chosen to make Himself known to me (despite diligent searching on my part), so I can safely assume one of the following: (a) He does not exist (atheism); (b) He does not care (some forms of Deism); or (c) any divine plan that may exist precludes the type of "fellowship" that Christians describe (some forms of Deism).
You know, I almost did not use this analogy because of some potential relevance to your life. And then I felt that this may be God's way of connecting with you. Let with me share these points: A) God does exist, B) He does care about you, and C) He does want you to pursue a relationship with Him. Whatever the reason behind your not knowing your biological father whether it be that he knew you were born or was never aware of your birth, there is Someone who has known you before you were conceived. He is a Father that will never leave you nor forsake you. Whatever shortcomings your earthly father may have had, know that you can have a relationship with our heavenly Father( who does not have any shortcomings).
There is a Cajun joke about Thibodeaux and Boudreaux and a flood on the bayou. Thibodeaux is trying to tell Boudreaux that there is a flood coming and that "he need to get to higher gound" Boudreaux say, "I'm a God-fearin' Christian. I read the Bible ever day. God gonna take care o'me." Thibodeaux come by twice wid a perot (pronounced pee'-row) (which is a boat) and try to git Boudreaux to higher ground. To this Boudreaux responds with the refrain, "I'm a God-fearin' Christian. I read the Bible ever day. God gonna take care o'me." Boudreaux is now on his roof with the water lapping near the top of the walls and Thibodeaux yells at him over the sound of the helicopter blades whirling from above, "Boudreaux, come now! The flood waters are comin'! You gotta come now!" At which Boudreaux responds again, "I'm a God-fearin' Christian. I read the Bible ever day. God gonna take care o'me." Well, Boudreaux find himself in heaven and goes to seek out God 'cause he pretty upset. He taps God on the back and indignantly announces to God, "I told ever body that I was a God-fearin' Christian, that I read the Bible ever day. And I told'em You were gonna take care o'me!? To which God responds, "I sent you two perots and a helicopter, what else do you want!"
My point is...you may be getting messages from Him, but you may not have preferred the messengers.
[Redundantly quoted material removed.]
However, like Paul said, 'I still mess up." Romans 7:15,16,19 (paraphrased)
Paraphrasing is convenient. Is this why you tale a passage describing the process leading up to salvation and apply it to your situation after salvation?
I paraphrased to communicate in a dialect from our time that I still don't always corform my thoughts and actions to what is appropriately Christ-like. Paul was saying that that was something that was of conflict for him after his acceptance of Jesus. He concludes the chapter: "Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin."
We are human and still make mistakes after we have accepted Christ as our personal Savior. Like the bumper sticker says, "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven."
Now there is a condition to forgiveness by our Father...Yes, forgiveness is conditional.... We must forgive those of whom we perceive have wronged us.
Ouch! You mean I have to do something to be forgiven? I thought that I could not earn my way through works to heaven. No. You can't earn salvation, it's a free gift. None of us are worthy of it, however it's a free gift. But forgiveness is conditional. We must forgive those whom have wronged us and then our Father will forgive us. (Matthew 6:14,15 Mark11:25,26)
He appears to have been a "reasonable" fellow
You enclose the word reasonable in quotation marks. Does this mean that you intend to convey a sense of irony, rather than the commonly accepted use of that word (as indicated by your use of the quotation marks)?
I was playing off his "Age of Reason" title. Trying to interject my sense o'humor...
These people, whom are very intelligent
I still have trouble with who and whom myself, so when in doubt I simply recast the sentence to avoid these questions altogether.
In the analogy of the father and son, where I use the word may I originally had would. I made that change on the outside possibility that you actually had experienced such a circumstance and that you had not had a favorale result. I cannot tell you that I know how you feel. I can tell you this, as a father I am thankful that I had read the Bible and was conscientious of my heavenly Father's expectation of me as a father before having the children that He has given me custodianship over. They are not mine, they are His. In my charge for the next 20 years or so... As I'm attempting to respond to you they are playing on the chair and under the computer table as I try to type and are basically being "wonderful little distractions". I know this Ward Cleaver visual may make you nausious. I make plenty of mistakes; hopefully fewer with the knowledge of our Father's expectations of me.
As a Thomas, I have felt at times a kinship to the Thomas of Jesus' original twelve disciples. He had to see the holes. I didn't necessarily need to see the holes, however I haven't had my walk in blind faith either. Doubt and scepticism can be precursors to greater faith.
My intent is not to convert you, but for you to know there is a God (our Father who art in heaven) and He loves you and He cares for you.
Sincerely,
Tom
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From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Tom Bratcher"
Subject: Re: hello
Date: Saturday, July 28, 2001 11:06 PM
[Please pull only those comments from my response that you wish to comment on. If you cannot honor this simple courtesy which is common to almost all forums,
http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/emlabout.htm
I will duck out of the conversation. If you simply insert comments into a copy of my complete letter, here and there at your convenience, this makes for boring reading unless I do some fancy editing. And if I do any editing, I expose myself to the charge of having altered your words.]
Of course that would require dimensions that we may not be aware of, yet.
Then, how can you speak of dimensions of which you are not aware? In other words, if you were to tell me of these dimensions, how could I independently verify your claims? How would I distinguish you from any number of "seers" that you and I would both agree are what some call "false prophets"?
Why do I have such a hard time believing you?
Well, you have admitted that you have a challenge with belief :)
I realize you're trying to be funny, but this is called Equivocation, using two different meaning of the same synonym in the same sentence.
So, let me get this straight: I must already believe in order to be given the means or the justification to believe?
No...no. You would have to have a little faith to begin. Not necessarily belief.
You're splitting hairs. Actually, you get the trophy, because this is the first time anybody's ever pulled the inverse of an Equivocation on me.
Still, what you're saying is that I must already have faith in order to have faith. I must already think there's a god in order to find out if there's a god. I cannot investigate this question with an open mind -- a clean slate -- I must approach this question prejudiced in favor of the answer being "Yes, a god exists."
This is the opposite of how I typically go about verifying (or refuting) the various claims that people present to me. The God Question is the only question that requires me to go against that method which has proven to be the most efficient and effective technique for distinguishing true statements from falsehood.
I'm not sure I understand what spiritual means.
We are spiritual (ethereal, or of vapor/breath) beings ... [snip] ... we may not be aware of, yet.
I'm still not sure I understand what spiritual means.
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
people with no reason to believe
From: "Tom Bratcher"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Re: hello
Date: Sunday, July 29, 2001 8:52 AM
[Please pull only those comments from my response that you wish to comment on. If you cannot honor this simple courtesy which is common to almost all forums,
http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/emlabout.htm
I will duck out of the conversation.
I apologize for not responding according to protocol. I thought I had responded to each comment or question of yours in the text of my response. Please forgive me. I tried to respond thoughtfully and diligently and with a little humor and it took most of my afternoon because I am not the most proficient typer. I could not assertain whether you had read the whole text of my response from your response. I'll try not to bore you.
perspective). Of course that would require dimensions that we may not be aware of, yet.
Then, how can you speak of dimensions of which you are not aware? In other words, if you were to tell me of these dimensions, how could I independently verify your claims? How would I distinguish you from any number of "seers" that you and I would both agree are what some call "false prophets"?
The Bible refers to implications of God's extra-dimensionality in the first chapter of Genesis. There is a book on the subject of God's extra-dimensionality that does a pretty good job of addressing this subject. The book is titled: "Beyond the Cosmos" subtitled: "The extra-dimensionality of God. What Recent Discoveries in Astronomy and Physics Reveal about the Nature of God" by Hugh Ross Ph.D. astronomy. He actually has (according to this bi-line)(that I just read)(though I have not actually seen this program) a television program called "Reasons To Believe" interestingly enough...
Still, what you're saying is that I must already have faith in order to have faith.
You know Cliff, I just read the dictionary (Random House College) definitions of faith and belief and they do apply them synomynously, and Hayford's Bible Handbook references Strong's definitions and they are applied synomynously as well. My connotations of the words (in my head) had entirely two distinct different meanings. Of course since I only have access to that information, it's not very useful to anybody else. Just for the sake of giving you the idea I was trying to convey, let me define how I was using the two words. I know...I know...making up definitions is not playing by the rules, however hear me out. I'm trying to share with you my ideas. Who knows, you may help me pick the correct word to convey my thought (a buddy has told me that word would be articulate :)
Faith: the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
Belief: confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately suseptible to rigorous proof (Random House College Dictionary def#2)
Possibly the word I'm looking for is hope. Or possibly expectation... If you're going to go fishing for anything, you do need to have the a small expectation that you might actually find it. Or else, you'll cruise all over the lake and never catch it unless it jumps in the boat. It could happen...the probability is very low though.
But...As I have just read through Hebrews chapter 11(an interestering read on faith), your statement that I have responded to may be more accurate. Hebrews 11:6: "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for anyone who approaches God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him."
I'm still not sure I understand what spiritual means.
Containing a spirit. Our body is the vehicle, the vessel for our spirit; our soul. Matthew 10:28 states: Do not fear those who kill body but cannot kill the soul, rather fear him who can destroy body and soul...
This life is a journey. It is a test. We have been given an Owner's Manual to guide us though it.
You may want to check out these scriptures:
Romans 1:19-20
2 Peter 3
Some will get to participate in the New Creation (Rev 21). Maybe I'll get to see you there... I will pray for you, bro.
Tom
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From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Tom Bratcher"
Subject: Re: hello
Date: Sunday, July 29, 2001 5:50 PM
Of course that would require dimensions that we may not be aware of, yet.
Then, how can you speak of dimensions of which you are not aware?
The Bible refers to implications of God's extra-dimensionality in the first chapter of Genesis.
Again: How can I independently verify something that we're not even aware of?
I'm still not sure I understand what spiritual means.
Containing a spirit. Our body is the vehicle, the vessel for our spirit; our soul. Matthew 10:28 states: Do not fear those who kill body but cannot kill the soul, rather fear him who can destroy body and soul...
Spiritual? Spirit? Soul? I don't get it. Is it something we can detect, that we can independently verify? or must we go ahead and take it on "faith" in spite of what our senses and instruments tell us?
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
people with no reason to believe
From: "Tom Bratcher"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Sent: July 31, 2001 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: hello
I had intended to edit by reducing the text. However, I added more.... Pardon me...
Again: How can I independently verifiy something that we're not aware of?
"Physicists have uncovered strong evidence that extra dimensions exist. Yet predating these physics discoveries by more than nineteen hundred years are the words of the prophets and apostles who penned the books of the bible. These ancients described phenomena--such as the creation event, miracles, Jesus' post-resurrection capacities, as well as paradoxical doctrines--that require the existence of extra dimensions or the functional equivalent of extra dimensions. Hugh Ross Ph.D. "Beyond the Cosmos", Navpress 1996.
At the dawn of the 21st century, humanity has at it's availability many tools of technology that help us to measure and observe many things which were heretofore not visible and/or not even considered among the things we perceive as reality today. Copernicus' theory that the planets revolved around the sun was not invalid because of the absense of a telescope. Galileo's observation and discovery of this circumstance did not cause it to occur, he was able to observe it however with the invention of the telescope.
The possibility of a Creator operating in dimensions outside our observable four dimensions becomes more plausible with the discovery of extra dimensions. The fact that a Creator of this world, everything on it, in it and around it, would be a challenge to prove the existence of, does not mean that He does not exist. Similarly, the inhabitants of A.I. (artificial intelligence) on the two dimensional plane of a computer screen would find it challenging to fathom the three dimensional creator of the program that these 2 dimensional characters occupy.
The only way that we might perceive this extra-dimensional Creator, would be if He were to try to communicate with us. However, our presuppositions may bias our perception of the possible attempts of communication with us. Some may feel that the Jewish Torah and the additional books that make up the New Testament of the Christian Bible are a collection of fables. All through the books that make up the Torah are collections of stories of what is purported to be alleged attempts of communication by this Creator with a group of people. In the New Testament are stories that this Creator interjected Himself into our perceivable four dimensions and attempted to communicate with this specific group and share with this group that the Creator wanted to fellowship with His creatures of humanity. Writers of the Torah had foretold of this interjection of a Savior and had tried to communicate with a future generation what to look for to verify this event. Yet it would be for a distant generation to determine whether the intent of communication of a 2nd interjection of this Messiah would be relevant to them.
Everything we learn is either from our first person experience or from what someone has told us; either from their first person experience or from what somebody has told them. We have just recently (with thousands of years of technological advances of mankind's knowledge) found evidence to support extra dimensions. The only proof we could have of an extra-dimensional Creator is His attempts of communication with us. There are many references to these 2nd hand observations to these attemps of communication in the Bible. We may take these writers at their word or not.
The best form of learning is from first person experience, followed by learning from another's experience through the communication of that event by that person to us directly, followed by the retelling of a third person's experience to us by someone indirectly involved with the event. So in lieu of your first person experience of communication from our Creator, your best evidence that there is One is via someone else sharing a first person experience with you. Of course, after the sharing of that experience, it would deem a response of a spectrum of possibilities between belief or disbelief.
I have experienced communication to me from our Father. As a child, I recall being told by our Father to tell some younger children some stories to entertain them. I recall I was about six or seven and there were these younger kids that would spend most of the day in their backyard in diapers. It was like these little guys were left outside like dogs most of the day. Anyway, I recall that I told my mom that God had told me to tell these little guys some stories to entertain them. I don't remember what the stories were, just made up fairy tale type stories.
As an adult, I have experienced the nudge of the Holy spirit to do things that are usually uncomfortable to the "natural" man. Encouragement by the Holy spirit to do things that requires me to get out of my "comfort zone" like giving somebody a ride that was stranded on the road, or helping somebody push a car off the road, or giving money to someone when they ask.
I haven't not always been obedient to this instruction. Nope, more often than not, I have probably walked on by. And not every opportunity for this Samaritan gesture do I have this nudge by the Holy spirit.
I believe that most of creation has experienced what they feel is their conscience talking to them. I believe Freud referred to this as the "Id" or a "small still voice" of conscience. Our country culturally has gotten too busy. Everyone running around with a full agenda. I believe we have created this lifestyle to try to excuse ourselves from listening to God's "still small voice." My relationship with our Father came during a transition period in my life when I took a job transfer to a small town in Louisiana. I was forced to slow down in this slower paced culture that I was not accustomed to. And during this time, at a slower pace, in a more pastoral setting, I asked for God to have a more prominent role in my life.
I've also experienced the "coincidental" experiences that most of creation would pass off as just coincidence. During my transition period and as I was reading the Bible, references to remarriage in the Bible sounded like it was not allowed. I had been dating one woman exclusively and was thinking about whether to continue that relationship or pursue a line of dialogue with my former spouse about reconciliation. I had a meeting in the city both these women lived and I had asked my ex-wife if we could talk while I was in town. The trip to this city would take two hours. During my trip, at about the half-way point in my journey, my truck (of which I was driving) was hit by lightning. Talk about wake somebody up! The following hour's journey would take place without the distractions of the radio to contemplate my future (because as I would find out the next day, all that was left of the antennae was a melted nub.) All I had to listen to was the sound of the rain and the rythym of the windshield wipers. My girlfriend was amused by my interesting story but did not believe it happened to me until she saw, the next day, the melted nub of the antennae and the separated window trim near where the antennae was. My ex-wife was apathetic about my interesting story the next day. In restrospect, I felt that this was God's way of saying, "I'm trying to cause some good to occur for you in this new relationship and you're trying to mess it up!"
During a short period while my girlfriend and I were broken up, I asked God who I should pursue with a long term relationship. I asked Him if she would be my ex-wife, my girlfriend, or another woman that was a friend of mine. No sooner had I finished the prayer than the phone rang. It was my girlfriend. Maybe a coincidence...
This girlfriend has been my bride for eight years now. Shortly after we were married, she had gone to the doctor to talk to him because her monthly cycles had been out-a-whack(not consistent) and she thought that she would have a difficult time becoming pregnant. The doctor prescribed for her something to cause her cycles to be more consistent and he prescribed for her something for fertility. I encouraged her not to fill the prescriptions. I told her that I felt that when it was God's timing, we would have kiddos. The next day she started her cycle without filling the prescription. We now have three kiddos.
I have experienced a first person, audible (or what I percived as audible) communication from our Creator. No...it was not a two-sided conversation. You see, after I had been divorced for a while and had met a woman the previous evening and was reflecting on the event the next day, when I perceived in a direct, audible and admonishing tone, "Your body does not belong to you!" Talk about sit straight up in the bed! Youch! Got my attention.
The truth is (if one believes what the Bible says) He bought and paid for us. 1 Corinthians 6:20
This event happened prior to me becoming a real Christian. Oh, yah, I thought I was a Christian before. I was baptised and confirmed. That'll make you a card-caring, so-called Christian. For me, it was after this event and during a transition period in my life that I pursued trying to build a relationship with our Father. It did however come after I had perceived hitting bottom (for me) and asking (through a prayer-like conversation) if He would reveal himself to me. And I diligently read about Him via Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, and James' experiences.
I have also experienced the "sound of a rushing wind" as mentioned in John 3:8 and Acts 2:2. I was in that diligent pursuit of His words, when I experienced a sound like a rush of wind entering my ears like that of tires squealing on pavement or lots of air forced out of a balloon through a small orifice or like a tea kettle, but with more intensity and erratic. I immediately felt the weight of my circumstances lifted from my shoulders and it was though my feet barely touched the ground for a couple of days afterward. I don't know if this experience is very common. I know only one other person who has had this experience.
One day you will have a first person experience. You will one day see that the stories of old were not fables. However, at that time, hopefully you will not have waited to begin a relationship with our Father. Matthew 24:27, 30, Matthew 26:64, Luke 21:27, Daniel 7:13-14, Revelation 1:7
Earlier, in this thesis, I mentioned that our presuppositions may bias our perception of possible communications to us by our Father. The fact that you have not known your earthly father may have biased you to perceive that there is not a heavenly Father. However the fact that I coincidently used that father and son analogy may be God's way of using me to let you know that our crossing of pathes is not by chance.
Why would I spend my time trying to convey this idea to you?
Because, I believe that it is our Father's will that I share this with you.
My hope is that I have provided a seed. Your heart may be ready to receive it (Luke 8:11-15). I don't know your experience and I can't tell you that I know how you feel. Again, the comfort I try to convey to you is this: You have a heavenly Father and He cares about you and He wants you to pursue Him.
or must we go ahead and take it in "faith" in spite of what our senses and instruments tell us?
Yes Cliff, you gotta believe...
... in spite of what your head says and the lack of quantitative instrumentation to prove to us He exists.
Our heavenly Father wants to have a relationship with you.
What caused you to stop your diligent search for our Father?
It is with trepidation that I am about to press "Send". It is my hope that in my zeal to share our Father's existence, that I haven't offended you or or pushed you away or caused you to become more entrenched in your current philosophy. The fact that you grew up not knowing your biological dad is, I'm sure, a challenging experience. In these recent times of sexual liberty, the enemy has been very effective in his mission to kill, steal, and destroy. Organized religion has to some extent facilitated the enemy's mission. Since 1973, this country has allowed over 30 million babies to be killed. More than the combined totals of Herod and Pharoah. Each year, more babies are killed than the other leading causes of death (heart disease, cancer, automobile accidents) and AIDS combined. More babies have been killed since 1973 than the combined totals of U.S. causalities of all U.S. conflicts. Yet as large as this number is, it is dwarfed by the number of people killed as a result of the Inquistion (between 100 and 150 million). The enemy has done an effective job substituting organized religion for the relationship God intends for us to have with him. It is no wonder Thomas Paine was disillusioned with organized religion.
However, in spite of organized religion's failings, the Holy spirit has brought to the 21st the potential gift of Salvation.
It is with confidence in the knowledge that our Father exists, that He cares for you, and that He would like you to pursue Him, that I now press "Send"
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From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Tom Bratcher"
Subject: Re: hello
Date: August 06, 2001 7:43 PM
"Physicists have uncovered strong evidence that extra dimensions exist. Yet predating these physics discoveries by more than nineteen hundred years are the words of the prophets and apostles who penned the books of the bible.
I'd be interested in knowing which passages are alleged to teach about extra dimensions, and exactly what they teach about extra dimensions. This would include the historical interpretations of these verses given throughout history -- assuming that God would not deceive His children by discussing matters that will remain hidden until the twentieth century and allowing them to think He was talking about something else. In other words, are these passages so clearly describing extra-dimensions that someone with no background in twentieth-century scientific thinking could conclude that the passage is discussing extra dimensions?
I'd also like to know which extra dimensions research you are linking to the Bible passages and what that research does say as well as what it falls short of saying (where the researchers draw the line between reasonable but unprovable speculation and firmly established fact). This is because I want an analysis of how solid is the ground on which rests the extra dimensions research you are linking to the biblical verses. As I mentioned, some modern scientific thinking is very speculative and is admittedly on very shaky ground -- that is, the scientists who are making these speculations openly admit that they are speculating when they talk like this.
Everything we learn is either from our first person experience or from what someone has told us; either from their first person experience or from what somebody has told them.
Some knowledge is shown to be "hard-wired" in through genetics. Certain birds that have never been in the wild will duck when the silhouette of a predatory bird is projected onto a planetarium screen. Certain other birds that have never been in the wild appear to know the locations of stars and can orient themselves based on a planetarium projection.
Similarly, the inhabitants of A.I. (artificial intelligence) on the two dimensional plane of a computer screen would find it challenging to fathom the three dimensional creator of the program that these 2 dimensional characters occupy.
This is a common ruse to which I must reply, if a subject is beyond my ability to fathom it, then how can I be held accountable for knowing it? In other words, why would I need to know what is going on "beyond" or "before" the Big Bang if it does not affect me enough to be able to even understand it?
In other words, why would God make Himself available only to those scientists who are working on very speculative projects during the twentieth century?
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
people with no reason to believe
From: Tom Bratcher
To: Cliff Walker
Sent: August 06, 2001 8:05 PM
Subject: self-help
Hello Cliff,
How are you doing? Just wanted you to know I was thinking about you and that I intend to stay in touch.
I did want to share another experience I had during my transition period. You may be getting tired to my overuse of the term "transition period", however it was a period in which I had just been divorced and I did not have any commitments to obligate me and my time (except for the point I had taken a job in a different state) and I had time to think things out. I could research different ideas that competed for my interest without the distractions of familiarity and habit. I did not require a comfort zone created by a self accepted delusional perception of reality. I could explore reality based on what gave me the most inner peace and what I sensed as truth.
During this transition period, I enrolled in Tae Kwon Do. I had taken it while in college and I felt that this would be good exercise and would give me self confidence.
At one point during this period, I went to the mall and started to roam a bookstore, basically searching for a self-help book. I passed the best sellers, the how-to's, I slowed down around the martial arts stuff, but said, "I'm doin' that. I don't need that." I basically moved though the whole store looking at all the available stuff, when I found myself in the back corner with no other available options left. At this corner I was perturbed because of what I found. There was a four foot by eight foot section of versions of the Bible. I glanced around to see if anybody was looking. I said out loud so that anybody around me could hear, "I'm not going to get a Bible!"
Why was I worried about what other people thought?
Well, in retrospect, I feel I was lead to that point to find the ultimate self-help Book. I did not purchase the Book then. However now, I feel pumped thinking somebody may be watching we peruse the Bible aisle. This self-help Book is not something we must do by ourselves. We do need the guidance of the Holy spirit. We have to make the quality decision to open the Book and start to explore the communications and history journaled to find out about God and what His expectation is of us. Yeah, there are allot of people in the book that messed up. If not all, most, except One.
Remember this: "Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17
If you wanted to find out where faith comes from, you've got to diligently dig in the Book, again ...
Let me know if you need assistance finding your way around in the Book. If I don't know the answer, I'll do my best to find it for you.
Talk to you later,
Tom
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From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Tom Bratcher"
Subject: Re: self-help
Date: August 08, 2001 9:03 AM
Let me know if you need assistance finding your way around in the Book.
Having read the Bible cover-to-cover twelve times, I am very familiar with what it says. In fact, I scored 45 out of 50 on the Freedom From Religion Foundation's new Bible Quiz, "What Do You Really Know about the Bible?" In fact, they got the first one, "What is the Tenth Commandment?" from the Which Ten Commandments? flyer on our website. I should have known at least three more, but I just wasn't thinking and had half a mind just to go ahead and look up the answers because I knew most of them.
So, since I am so familiar with what it says, I can, in all confidence, assure you that it is not the statement of a supernatural being. Were it from a perfect being, one could expect it to be as universal as the Law of Gravity and as precise as a multiplication table or a calculus equation. It is neither. I do not spend much time or space on Positive Atheism dealing with biblical errancy, but I have covered this subject extensively in my own studies. I ignore biblical errancy because it takes only one error and the notion of inerrancy crumbles to dust. For this, I satisfy myself with an early work of mine called "The Fig Tree Enigma." A shortened summary of the Fig Tree Enigma lives on our "National Bible Week" poster, and is summarized in our new "Big List of Scary Bible Quotations" (which is not all that big yet, because I started working on it only recently and commenting on the Bible not a high priority with me).
I have spent some time on a few biblical issues. First, I documented several problems with the Genesis creation accounts (plural because there is more than one).
Later, while answering a challenge to find discrepancies in the Bible, I decided to make my case rock solid by listing how the various translations handle these mathematical problems I'd chosen to showcase. (For some reason he wouldn't allow me to talk about "geographical or historical" problems, but in retrospect I think he just didn't know how to write. But at the time, I chose to discuss several mathematical problems that I had recently read about.) During my research for this piece, I discovered that the New International Version actually covers up many of the well-known and "classic" Bible problems. The NIV "translation" team simply translates these problems out of existence -- as if the manuscripts say something different!
After that, Kameron Shultz asked about Gospel contradictions, and I overviewed the problems with the construction of the Gospels, showcasing a few of the specific examples. Then I explained why I do not spend much time with lists of Bible contradictions. Finally, Matthew Rupert asked about misapplication of Scripture, and I showed him several examples of how the New Testament writers misapplied Hebrew Scripture, proving that the practice of taking Bible verses out of context is as old as the Apostles themselves!
Most recently, a dialogue with Troy Dyck, he stated that the Ten Commandments are representative of human morality, and I went over each Commandment and show this not to be the case. Afterwords, I developed a Bible Quiz. Let's see if you can answer mine, if you don't want to do the one from FFRF!
So, it's not that I don't know the Bible -- the problem is that I do know the Bible. I don't trust it as an authoritative source of information, and I do not think the morals it teaches are anything that I'd encourage any children to emulate. I think humankind can do much better than what the Bible has to offer.
As for faith, show me that a god exists and I won't need faith -- I'll know.
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
people with no reason to believe
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From: "Tom Bratcher"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Sent: August 12, 2001 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: hello
I'd be interested in knowing which passages are alleged to teach about extra dimensions, and exactly what they teach about extra dimensions.
The writers of old did not address specific scientific phenomena per se. These writers do address actions that would occur outside of the four dimensions that we are familiar with.
The creation event as described in Genesis 1:1-30 requires that the Creator of that event work outside the four dimensions we are confined to. The verses of John 1:3 and Collossians 1:16-17 refer to the beginning of matter that would be relevant to a Creator working outside the aforemention four dimensions. There are also mentions of things God did prior to the creation of the world and/or time: 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus1:2, Proverbs 8:22-23, John 17:5,24, Ephesians 1:4, 1 Peter 1:20.
The relevance of extra-dimensions may also be more visible with the recollection of the appearance of the fourth person in the fire with Daniel's three friends as described by Daniel in Daniel 3 (specifically 3:24-26). Daniel's friends were protected from fire so well that their clothing did not even have the scent of smoke, although the fire was so hot it killed Nebuchadnezzar's soldiers who had thrown Daniel's friends in the fire.
Jesus' transfiguration and the appearance of Moses and Elijah to Peter, James and John as recorded by Matthew 17:1-13 and Mark 9:2-3 may also be an observation by the disciples of the extra dimensions available to the Son of God. Also His appearance to the eleven after His resurrection where He enters the room though the doors are locked and closed is not characteristic of someone bound by four dimesions. He also displays characterics of our dimensions by eating some food, showing that he has ability in and/or out of our four dimensions (Luke 24:36-43, John 20:19-23).
There is also mention of the created elements going away (2 Peter 3:10,12), and a new set of physical laws (Isaiah 65:17, 66:22, 2 Peter 3:13, Rev 21:1,5,23, Rev 22:5) coming into play as would be required of a Creator working outside our limited four dimensions.
include the historical interpretations of these verses given throughout history -- assuming that God would not deceive His children by discussing matters that will remain hidden until the twentieth century and allowing them to think He was talking about something else. In other words, are these passages so clearly describing extra-dimensions that someone with no background in twentieth-century scientific thinking could conclude that the passage is discussing extra dimensions?
I have read that Albert Einstein owned a desk with the New Testament verse Romans 8:19 scrawled on it: "All creation waits with eager expectation the revelation of the children of God"
Whether Einstein put that on his desktop is irrelevent. The point is, revelations given to us have been specific to our collective intellectual maturity. Some of us, in the post-modern (I have had a problem with this term "post modern")(We're past modern?) era, have considered ourselves too smart, too enlightened with all our scientific discoveries and advancements to conceive or believe in some mythical deity. However, now it seems as though this post-modern scientific society may have been given a glimpse of the forum where this Creator could operate to create things in the dimensions we perceive.
I'd also like to know which extra dimensions research you are linking to the Bible passages and what that research does say as well as what it falls short of saying
I have found the books of Dr. Hugh Ross, specifically "Beyond the Cosmos" (NavPress, 1996) and "The Creator and the Cosmos" (NavPress, 1995) very interesting on the subjects of extra dimensions and the cosmos. Each has links to biblical passages of relevance to these subjects. Below I have included the URLs (I seem to recall this was ok according to the protocol rules of this forum) of two papers that briefly address the subjects of extra dimensions and time, (relative to time as a dimension and the extra dimensions of time) respectfully.
http://www.reasons.org/resources/faf/95q4dmsn.html
-extra dimensions and
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/brieflook.html
-time and dimensions of time relative to an origin or Creator
Some knowledge is shown to be "hard-wired" in through genetics.
It does appear that many creatures, other than homosapiens, have hard-wired or instinctual knowledge. It seems, though, the only things hard-wired in humans are the actions of breathing and to suckle.
if a subject is beyond my ability to fathom it, then how can I be held accountable for knowing it? In other words, why would I need to know what is going on "beyond" or "before" the Big Bang if it does not affect me enough to be able to even understand it?
Many have chosen with less substantial information to believe there is a Creator. However this generation has become the most overburdened with information. If we must need more evidence that an extra-dimensional Creator exists, in and/or beyond the dimensions we perceive, we must try to fathom what "Is" (Exodus 3:14, John 8:58, John 18:6) beyond or before Creation.
As for the accountability issue, our Father wants us to know Him, not necessarily all the mechanisms and mechanics of His business. He wants us, of our own free will, to choose to know Him and love Him and express that to Him. Jesus did re-articulate what the greatest commandments were and He also gave us a new commandment.
"The first is this: 'Hear O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone! Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength (Mark 12:30, Jesus quoting from Deuteronomy 6:4-5).' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself (Mark12:31, Jesus quoting from Leviticus 19:18).'"
"I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another (John 13:34, 15:12)."
Love is an action verb. We may not feel like it at times. Those are the commandments given that were the most important according to Jesus. Probably because, if these are observed, the rest kind of fall into line.
And because He commanded us to love him, it doesn't sound like free will.
Paul told us to, "Love your wife" (Ephesians 5:28,33). May seem like an obvious thing to do. Husbands sometimes forget to do the action verb. We want the action but we forget the action verb (sometimes). I can tell you from personel experience that when I do the action verb, our relationship is more effective, productive, and we're happier.
Do we need to know about extra dimensions to know God. No. He would like us to have faith as a child. But we have chosen to eat from the tree of the knowledge. And sometimes knowledge gets in the way of faith. However, sometimes knowledge gives us reasons to believe.
In other words, why would God make Himself available only to those scientists who are working on very speculative projects during the twentieth century?
"Ever since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been clearly seen..." Romans 1:19-20, 2 Peter 3:5. We are the latest generation with the most accumulated scientific information. It may be that this "post-modern" generation may be given this revelation knowledge as referred to in Daniel 12:4 (KJV,NASB,or RSV on this one. NIV is kind of off on this one).
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From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Tom Bratcher"
Subject: Re: hello
Date: August 12, 2001 7:08 AM
The writers of old did not address specific scientific phenomena per se.
True. Your linking these passages to extra-dimensional research is conjecture on your part, as is evidenced by the arbitrary nature of the passages you chose as your example. I could write that the line from the Tom Waits song that goes "The sky cracked open / And the thunder groaned" refers to extra-dimensional research (because how else could the sky be said to have "cracked open"?) and it would be no less valid than what you have said here. It is a simple matter to take obscure poetry from any era and try to link it to some of the more esoteric speculation coming out of the softer ends of certain universities. Some have gone so far as to take every nth letter of an x by y grid composed of the consonants taken from books of the Bible transcribed from ancient languages -- not unlike a word search puzzle like you'd find in the newspaper except the grid is in an ancient tongue and the words you find are in a modern tongue -- and try to find hidden messages there. (What kind of god would make you go through all that just to receive a message from Him?) Skeptics have "found" similar "messages" in similarly processed works currently on the New York Times bestseller list.
All of this proves the same thing: Nothing.
What? Doesn't the Gospel stand on its own merits, that it needs all this weird stuff to validate it before you'll believe it? Or is regular theology just too boring for you, that only this magical mystical hocus pocus can grab your attention? In either case, I'd suggest you're pursuing the wrong religion if you need any of this kind of stuff to keep you interested or to validate it. I cannot distinguish what you're doing here from the Nostradamus craze or Hal Lindsay's Late Great Planet Earth or the daily horoscope in the newspaper. I mean, I don't care what you do, but please don't think I'll ever respect you for going along with this stuff. In 1848, twelve-year-old Kate Fox and her fifteen-year-old sister Margaret became instant celebrities by claiming that they could communicate with the spirit of a peddler who had been murdered in their house years before. They communicated through encoded "rapping" sound that witnesses could hear very clearly. By 1950 they had been exhibited by P. T. Barnum, amidst his bearded lady and Tom Thumb. By 1853, only five years later, some forty thousand spiritualists were in business in New York City alone, with thousands reported in other cities. Years later, the Fox sisters confessed that they had perpetrated a hoax from the start: the "rapping" sounds were simply the sisters cracking their toe-joints! Nevertheless, spiritualism is still a very lucrative business all over the world. One could even make a case that the Bible predicted this phenomenon in the passage where Saul hoodwinks the "witch" of Endor to dig up the "soul" of Samuel (never mind that the "witch" in the story isn't clairvoyant enough to figure out that this is Saul in disguise!).
I have found the books of Dr. Hugh Ross, specifically "Beyond the Cosmos" (NavPress, 1996) and "The Creator and the Cosmos" (NavPress, 1995) very interesting on the subjects of extra dimensions and the cosmos. Each has links to biblical passages of relevance to these subjects.
Hugh Ross is a preacher, not a scientist. Based on some of the other things Ross has come up with in his power grabs before the nation's school boards, it makes sense to see him trying to link the Bible to extra-dimensions research.
Why don't you start getting your science education from scientists? This would greatly reduce the prospects of you getting hoodwinked by the likes of Hugh Ross.
I have no problem with you or anybody else wanting to be religious. But when you start telling people that science says something -- and that's not what science says -- then you not only discredit your own religion but you do a great disservice to those younger, more impressionable people who might just believe what you say because they haven't yet learned that Christians and especially preachers are not above lying if that's what it takes to convince someone to believe in Christ.
Cliff Walker
Positive Atheism Magazine
Six years of service to
people with no reason to believe
From: "Tom Bratcher"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Re: hello
Date: August 14, 2001 1:13 AM
Your linking these passages to extra-dimensional research is conjecture on your part, as evidenced by the arbitrary nature of the passages you chose as your example. I could write that the line from the Tom Wait song that goes "The sky cracked open / And the the thunder groaned" refers to extra-dimensional research (because how else could the sky be said to have "cracked open"?) and it would be no less valid than what you have said here.
You are correct. The Tom Wait line, "The sky cracked open" could be mistaken for an event that is of extra dimensional import. However was what he referenced something he saw with his eyes (in the physical realm which we normally visible see in three dimensions, although we are currently aware of at least four), or something he saw in his mind (imagination) or a dream, or is he referring to an event he was told of? These writers of the Bible try to describe historical events they had seen or were allegedly told of. If the creation event occurred, as told by the Creator to one of the writers, clearly this would have to occur by Someone who can operate outside of our dimensions. The passages referred to specifically described super-natural events that supposedly historically occurred and the super-natural possibly may be facilitated through these other dimensions potentially available to the Creator.
When the writers of the Bible had dreams or visions that refer to events that they did not natural see, they specifically say they saw it in a dream or a vision.
I find the Bible very fascinating, not only because of my value of these words as God-inspired, but also for its literary prose. The Old Testament has plenty of real-life drama, suspense, action, and intrique. I also find humor (you may think I have a warped sense of humor). I remember laughing out loud when (while reading a book in those of the Apocrypha) a general told his king to send somebody he doesn't like go up against the people of Israel because he had just experienced a super-natural trouncing. I apologize, I don't recall the book and verse. I could look it up. I'm sure with your Bible experience you may question the relevance of the Apocrypha (of course you probably have this point of view with the rest of the Book), however I found it an interesting perspective and chronicle of part of the history of the Jewish people. I did notice one book in particular that sounded like the obscure poetry, of which you mention, in the book Tobit.
I particularly like the Gospel according to John. One part I especially find provocative is where Jesus says to those of the Jewish leadership, "Before Abraham was, I AM (John 8:58)."
What? Doesn't the Gospel stand on its own merits, that it needs all this weird stuff to validate it before you'll believe it?
Yes, I do believe the Gospel stands on its own merits.
Or is regular theology just too boring for you, that only this magical mystical hocus pocus can grab your attention?
I do believe the Bible on its own merits and from my own experiences. When I heard an interview with Hugh Ross, I found it an interesting discussion of the subjects of astronomy and extra-dimensions in a role of apologetics that I had not heard of.
where Saul hoodwinks the "witch" of Endor to dig up the "soul" of Samuel (never mind that the "witch" in the story isn't clairvoyant enough to figure out that this is Saul in disguise!).
We of the Judeo-Christian persuasion don't recommend that anyone consult witches, soothsayers, mediums, fortune tellers, etc (Leviticus 19:31, 20:6, Deuteronomy 18:10-11). Saul lost his kingship over this transgression and his disobedience(1 Samuel 15:23, 28:16-18). It doesn't surprise me that this "witch" is not clairvoyant enough to know that it was Saul. However, God knows ...
Hugh Ross is a preacher, not a scientist.
I can agree with you that by Hugh Ross' earning of a doctorate in astronomy and a batchelor's in physics does not necessarily mean he is a scientist. And I have read opinions from some scientists who proclaim to be Christian who also disagree with his opinions on other subjects relating to Christian apologetics. I have found his work on this subject to be interesting and plausible. The fact that you label him a preacher does not necessarily discredit him as a scientist. People who become preachers may have many experiences in various occupations and fields of study before, during, or after they become passionate participants trying to communicate the potential message of the Gospel, bringing with them these experiences and communicating that message from their various perspectives.
Why don't you start getting your science education from scientists?
I am not trying to be too general, but are you saying that if a scientist tries to apply observations made in the field of science to a Creator, creatures and creation that he is discredited as a scientist?
I have no problem with you or anybody else wanting to be religious.
I would like to address this comment later in the text of my response.
But when you start telling people that science says something -- and that's not what science says --
The URLs below relate to the interesting (to me) articles on extra dimensions. These sites however do not address them from a theological perspective as does Hugh Ross.
http://www.sciencenews.org/20000219/bob1.asp
Science News Online, "Hunting for Higher Dimensions", dated February, 19, 2000, by P. Weiss.
http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/1999/split/pnu453-1.htm
The American Institute of Physics, Number 453 (Story #1), dated October 19, 1999, by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein
http://focus.aps.org/v1/st7.html
Focus, The American Physical Society, "Curling Up Extra Dimensions in String Theory", dated 9 April 1998, by Robert Garisto.
The physicist Ed Witten is also considered a pioneer in this field.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/1996/dom/960617/time25/witten.html
Time.com, Time25, "Ed Witten", 1996. "...on the verge of cracking a philosophical mystery that's dogged science..."
Hugh Ross, a preacher who holds a doctorate in astronomy and a batchelor's in physics does give a provocative discussion on the subject.
then you not only discredit your own religion but you do a great disservice to those younger, more impressionable people who might just believe what you say because they haven't yet learned that Christians and especially preachers are not above lying if that's what it takes to convince someone to believe in Christ.
From the onset of our dialogue I said I did not think I could prove to you that our Father exists. I said that what I could tell of some certainty was of the experiences I have had. When I made statements in reference to extra dimensions, I have used the terms "may", "might", "possibly", "possibility", and "potential". I did quote an author who used the term "strong evidence" in reference to the existence of extra dimension. I apologize if you feel I have mislead you or I misrepresented information. I can honestly say that I have tried to be earnest and compassionate with you in all of our dialogue.
I cannot take responsibility for all the so-called Christians who have not been honest with you. Jesus said, "Love one another as I have loved you. This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another (John 14:34-35." I am sorry that you have had to endure the actions you've described by so-called Christians.
The Book does warn us to beware of these so-called Christians whom would be as wolves in lambs' clothes (Matthew 7:15, Acts 20:29, 2 Peter 2:1-3).
In reference to being religious, I don't see myself as religious. I do say that I believe in Jesus Christ, that He lived, died, and rose again, in fulfillment of the Scriptures, and that His obedience to death on the cross has paid my debt and has given us the potential gift of Salvation so I may again have fellowship with our Father and that I will one day see Him in the New Jerusalem. And from your perspective, I would appear to be acting religiously as in the religion of Christianity.
I say flush religion! But don't flush our Father, though. As I have said previously, the enemy has utilized "religion" to kill, steal, and destroy. Jesus (quoting from Isaiah 29:13) told those in Jewish leadership (the Jewish "religious" leaders), "Well did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.' You disregard God's commandment but cling to human tradition." It certainly can be said that most of the most recognized denominations of Christianity and the leadership thereof can be held guilty of this decree as well. So ... what do we do....?
I believe that the Holy spirit has protected our Father's Word and has brought the potential gift of salvation to the 21st Century. I believe that by digging into His Word with a little expectation, we can find out our Father's expectation of us. I don't believe the brick and mortar idea of the church is what Jesus and His disciples had in mind. I think the institution of the church has been of some benefit. Basically by providing a forum for which His words have been carried to the present. And we have access to that.
At one time, it sounds like you had a hope that a God did exist. Your diligent search ended for whatever reason. I am aware that you edit this magazine and that requires a responsibility and loyalty that may be challenging for you to dare to hope, again.
I would not dare to try to pass this hope to you if I did not think that this fellowship and relationship were not available to you. I do not try to communicate this opportunity to you for any personel gain. My attempt is as one brother to another.
I would like to share one more story before I close.
A few years ago, when we had two kiddos in diapers and bottles at the same time, my wife and I were both working and we were chasing our tales. I envied how restful and peaceful these guys seemed to be when they would fall asleep in my arms. After putting the last one to fall asleep in bed, I would go to our living room, kneel in front of the couch with my elbows on the cushions and start my prayers by giving thanks for my many gifts including my kiddos. On that occasion, I sat on the couch and I asked our Father to let me experience that peace and rest that my kiddos in my arms experienced as if I could crawl up in His lap and go to sleep in His arms. I am not one that can fall asleep anywhere, not unless I have my own pillow and at least 2' by 6' of open real estate to stretch out in. I also have difficulty sleeping while sitting. This night after I said that prayer, I woke up four hours later, sitting on the couch, wondering what I was doing there. Then I remember, what seemed like a moment before, of what I asked. Then I went and put myself in bed and went back to sleep.
Yeah ... it could be another coincidence ...
I believe this relationship is available to you.
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From: "Tom Bratcher"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Re: Addendum to last letter (Re:Self-help)
Date: September 01, 2001 10:24 AM
Let's see if you can answer mine, if you don't want to do the one from FFRF!
Man!!! You probably thought I fell off the earth ... Pardon me! Please?! I just realized, you must be anticipating my response to your Bible quiz. I got concerned about the response protocol thing and basically forgot about the quiz stuff that you may be waiting on me to respond.
Yeah, the FFRF was a little sophomoric ... I would like to address the (is it just the 5?) questions you posed to T.Dyck.
1) What is the "proof text"...when Christianity ... required by law ... heresy punished by violence at the hands of the state?
2) When a mob of Christian clerics fell upon ... Hypatia and hacked her to death ... this was done because Hypatia had broken which of God's laws?
3) Which passage was used ... as "proof text" to justify burning my forebears at the stake?
4) ... to which passage did they point to justify executing a suspected witch upon the first charge?
All of the above questions have the same answer. The "so-called Christians" that executed these judgments had no "proof text" to substantiate these actions. The Old Testament has law regarding the witch thing, however, neither Jesus or the apostles said anything to justify these actions. It is quite different. They said to "shake off the dust" (off their feet) after leaving the presence of someone who did not want to hear or act on the words they had heard. Matt 10:14, Mark 6:11, Luke 9:5, 10:10-11, Acts 13:51. The most severe punishment to be inflicted by decree of the clergy was not to associate with immoral people (of bretheran that are supposed to be Christians)(1 Cor 5:9-12, 2 Thes 3:14-15) and reprimand those who sin (1 Tim 5:20. Jude talks about false teachers and says, "Woe to them!" (Jude 1:11)(Woa...) He says God will execute judgment on all and convict everyone for all the godless deeds they have committed (Jude 1:15). He then says, "But you, beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in the love of God and wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. On those who waver, have mercy; save others by snatching them out of the fire ... (Jude 1:20-23).
That ol' wiley enemy has done what Jesus warned would happen. The wolf's in sheep's clothes. He has infiltrated old time religion (as most visibly, but not limited to the Inquisition). What better way to derail a potentional enemy than to get him off track in his pursuit of his heavenly Father. You referred to your forebears being burned at the stake. Those who read and shared the Bible without consent from Rome (my forebears) also suffered the same fate.
5) ... to which passage of scripture did Eusebius point to justify replacing scientifical and historical investigation with blind faith?
Again, I see scripture pointing out the opposite. "Test everything, keep the good stuff (1 Thes 5:21, 1 John 4:1)."
I do find it amazing that with the most aggressive assault on Christendom from within, via the vessel which is the church that occupies the city of seven hills (Rev 7:19), that we have a Book written in the vernacular in almost every tongue on this planet. A vernacular Book was outlawed before the Inquisition It is not a surprise that this Roman church, in its attempt at ecumenism (I'm always concerned when I see an "ism" at the end of a word), is trying to put it all back together (under her control).
I apologize, Aaagain ... I did not intend to imply that you did not have experience digging in the Book. My interest in saying, 'If you'de like some assistance locating something in there' was basically just trying say, "Hey, if you need help, let me know." I'm always trying to assist my little guys (not trying to imply that you're a little guy) and their response to me is: "I want to do it myself!" Our Father wants you to know that you don't have to do it yourself. Lean on Him (Proverbs 3:5).
And with that, I leave you with these words to hum:
Lean on me,
When your not strong,
and I'll be yo friend.
I'll help you car-r-y on.
For,
it won't be long,
til I'm gonna need some-bo-dy
to lean on....
I know ... forgive me Aaagain ... I've been up awhile ...
Please also pardon me for the triple negative in my last communique. What I had intended to write was: "I would not dare to try to pass this hope to you if I thought that this fellowship and relationship were not available to you."
And again, I do believe that it is our Father's will that I pass this message to you.
Sincerely,
Tom
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From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Tom Bratcher"
Subject: Re: Addendum to last letter (Re:Self-help)
Date: September 01, 2001 11:48 AM
Yeah, the FFRF [Bible quiz] was a little sophomoric
How many questions did you get right? I got 45 out of 50 and would have gotten 48 had I been paying attention. Only two questions stumped me. I dare most pastors to do that well. In fact, it was I who recently popularized the answer to the first question, that the Tenth Commandment prohibits us from seething a kid in its mother's milk. I wonder why they always want to post the Decalogue which Moses allegedly destroyed on classroom walls, and are so fond of ignoring its replacement, which is described in Exodus 35 and is the only list which the Bible calls the Commandments?
so-called Christians
and
so-called Christians
and
so-called Christians
and
so-called Christians
and
so-called Christians
Yeah, some so-called Christians (but never real ones) in a city with seven hills -- they're always the culprits! There's nothing wrong with the core values of the religion itself, it's all in the way that certain people practice the religion (or fail to practice it, as the case may be). I see. Same as with the Twelve Steps: if you don't stay sober it's because you didn't work the Steps -- as if the Steps have anything to do at all with staying sober! They only mention alcohol once, and that is to announce that we are powerless to stop drinking it!
If the Christian religion is not fundamentally flawed, then why can so much evil be justified through its Scripture. And if it's all Roman Catholicism's fault, then why were the Reformationists just as gleeful about lighting my forebears on fire as were their Roman Catholic colleagues -- to the point where John Calvin even cooperated with the Catholics in the burning of Michael Servetus? And why did Calvin place Servetus upwind of the flame, to give him that much more time to repent?
Do you see what we're dealing with? This is what monotheism, with its twin evils of special grace and infallibility, do to people! it turns people into monsters!
Your little trick of pointing to Scripture to contradict my Scripture shows only that Christian Scripture is so varied and inconsistent that you can pick just about any act conceivable and justify it with Scripture. Then you can turn right around and find a different passage which forbids the very act you just got through justifying! I am amazed that Freedom From Religion was able to come up with 50 questions that each have only one correct answer! I'm not sure I could have done that if presented with the challenge!
I'd like to see you try to answer my five questions by finding out which statement attributed to Jesus was used for several centuries to show that burning my philosophical forebears at the stake is the express will of Christ! I'll give you a hint: it's in the Gospel of John -- the one that they publish into booklet form and hand out to children and teenagers. I'll give you another hint: the passage talks specifically about men doing the burning. A third hint, you ask? here goes: the "crime" for which we were burned was because we did not hold the correct religious beliefs -- specifically, for not believing in Jesus, the new God which our fathers did not worship.
Can you imagine?
What did Jesus allegedly say that would prompt his followers to light their fellow humans on fire just for having the wrong religious beliefs? And if he had foreknowledge and could tell in advance that millions of atheists and witches and the like would die this horrible death just because of one sentence that he uttered, then why did he still utter the sentence? Why did he not clarify himself so that there could have been no mistaking what he said?
And what did Peter and Paul allegedly say that would prompt a mob of cloistered Christian monks to fall upon a brilliant woman and hack her to death with oyster shells? What did they say that would make these men think that killing her with such brutality was in express obedience to a commandment of God?
The fact that you label him a preacher does not necessarily discredit him as a scientist.
I call Hugh Ross a preacher because his agenda is to make science fit the Bible, rather than using science as a tool to determine what is environment (including the Bible) is and is not. I refrain from calling him a scientist because scientific method specifically addresses humankind's fallibility by pronouncing that no piece of information is above scrutiny, whereas Hugh Ross pretends to have infallible information in the form of a Bible. Thus, if his Bible is infallible, he must force everything he observes to fit into the mold of what the Bible says, rather than what a real scientist would do: test even the Bible using the tools of science just as she or he would test anything else. Because he has been so dishonest in this respect, I cannot call him a scientist. Because he has been so dishonest in this respect, I must call him a preacher. You will never find the truth by assuming that you already have it.
You know what? Have a nice life. As far as I can tell, it's the only one we get. I will live mine trying to treat others as if this is their only chance to exist, as if life is like a bird flying out of the winter chill through an open window in a hall and then passing back out again through a window on the other end. Compared to the rest of time, the chances of "now" being during my life-span is like tossing a penny out the car window onto Highway 30 (Maine to Oregon) and it landing on a specific ant walking along the highway. That's how brief my life will be: a penny compared to the United States. What can I do to make my fellow humans' all-too-brief journey that much less painful?
A few people have tried to relieve me of the inordinate amount of pain that I suffer compared to most. The people who raised me, for one, and several friends since then, most recently Bobbi, who has made my life almost livable at times. I certainly couldn't do this work if she weren't helping me out with some of the other things that have to do with living.
But for the most part, most of the people I've encountered wish only to exploit me -- and not even for personal gain but to try to convince me to give assent or lip service to an idea that is not even their idea! an idea which not only cannot be shown to be true but is demonstrably false! and not just benignly false, but parasitically and diabolically and destructively wicked! I just don't get it! Why do so many people wish for me to spend my only chance to live believing and teaching a lie? Why? What good does this do for them, for me, or for anybody?
Cliff Walker
Positive Atheism Magazine
Six years of service to
people with no reason to believe
From: "Tom Bratcher"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Sent: September 04, 2001 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: Addendum to last letter (Re:Self-help)
Yeah, some so-called Christians in a city with seven hills. They're the culprits, all right! There's nothing wrong with the core values of the religion itself, it's all in the way that certain people practice the religion. I see. If the Christian religion is not fundamentally flawed, then why can so much evil be justified through its Scripture. And if it's all Roman Catholicism's fault
Yep, you're right! The religion thing (the recognized formats of Christianity) seems to be flawed. And you're right again, Roman Catholicism is not alone in her error. Most of Christendom seems to lean in lock step with much of her flaws either out of default or design.
it turns people into monsters!
Paul in Romans 3 refers to Psalm 14 when he says, "All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, there is not even one. Their throats are like open graves; they deceive with their tongues; the venom of asps is on their lips; their mouths are full of bitter cursing. Their feet are quick to shed blood; ruin and misery are in their ways, and the way of peace they know not."
No, not even one does good. Monotheism did not turn these people into monsters, however these people of which you speak as monsters have used the monotheism vehicle to carry out their wickedness.
Yes sir. It is the application of religion that is flawed. However the evil of which you say is justified through Scripture is misapplication. In the Old Testament, there is definitely instruction to the Hebrews that could be interpretted by those in our culture as evil. But as for the New Testament, the scripture that you say "justifies" evil is either misapplied or misinterpretted.
Your little trick of pointing to Scripture to contradict my Scripture shows only that Christian Scripture is so varied and inconsistent that you can pick just about any act conceivable and justify it with Scripture. Then you can turn right around and find a different passage which forbids the very act you just got through justifying!
You know, I didn't purposefully try to contradict your examples of scripture that were to support your questions. I earnestly thought you were asking how these people could justify these incidents that occurred if the Scriptures do not support it.
I'd like to see you try to answer my five questions by finding out which statement attributed to Jesus ... : it's in the Gospel of John
I've looked ... I've must have overlooked. I could not find the verse in John of which you speak. Could you share it with me?
And if he had foreknowledge and could tell in advance that millions of atheists and witches and the like would die this horrible death just because of one sentence that he uttered, then why did he still utter the sentence? Why did he not clarify himself so that there could have been no mistaking what he said?
In His denunciation of the religigencia, Jesus said, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee the judgment of Gehenna? I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues (churches) and pursue from town to town..." (Matt24:33-34)
He also said that in the future in talking about the sign of the times at the end that, "Many false prophets will arise and deceive many, and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold."
Then He says, "But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come."
Peter said, "The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard "delay," but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief...."
And what ... did they (Peter and Paul) say that would make these men think that killing her with such brutality was in express obedience to a commandment of God?
Could you share with me what these men allegedly said?
I have editted little from your text that follows not to bore you, but because these words of yours have come from a heart that has truly experienced, what seems to me a great deal of pain. I have experienced some pain and I have experienced the pain of heartbreak. However, I don't think that I can tell you I know how you feel, though, as much as I would like to share with you empatheticly.
I will live mine trying to treat others as if this is their only chance to exist
This is an admirable and honorable thing to strive for.
That's how brief my life will be: a penny compared to the United States. What can I do to make my fellow humans' all-too-brief journey that much less painful? A few people have tried to relieve me of the inordinate amount of pain that I suffer compared to most. The people who raised me, for one, and several friends since then, most recently Bobbi, who has made my life almost livable at times. I certainly couldn't do this work if she weren't helping me out with some of the other things that have to do with living.
Bobbi definitely sounds like what we as Monotheists would call a blessing. She certainly sounds like an extraordinary woman.
But for the most part, most of the people I've encountered wish only to exploit me -- and not even for personal gain but to try to convince me to give assent or lip service to an idea that is not even their idea!
I do not wish to "one-up" you. I do not want assent or lip service. I hope only to plant a small seed. Maybe someone with similar circumstances someday will cross pathes with you with some words you can better relate to. You wouldn't want me to try to sell you something that I just made up. Yet, what I offer, does sound different than the concept you have described to me. So what I try to share with you is not my idea, though it does sound like a different observation than the possible main stream perception.
an idea which not only cannot be shown to be true but is demonstrably false!
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
The Holy Spirit has carried to the present the words of a historical person.
John writes, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)
God said, "Let there be..." (Genesis 1:3)
Jesus said, "It is written, 'One does not live by bread alone, But by every word that comes forth From the mouth of God'" (Matthew 4:4 from Deuteronomy 8:3)
Jesus said, "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life." (John 6:63)
Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." (Matt 24:25, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33)
Flush religion and all your preconceptions and presuppositions of it that hinder your ability to hear His Word and His words and His still, small voice. Forget and flush all the fanciful stories and intrigue that are present in your recollection that the enemy has brought to your conscious awareness to derail you of a one on one relationship with our Father. You are an interesting person. I hope and will pray that you will someday have a nicer and less painful life knowing that your "penny compared to the United States" life is but moment as compared to your future life with our Father, where He has promised that he will wipe away every tear.
"And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." (Revelation 21:4)
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From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Tom Bratcher"
Subject: Re: Addendum to last letter (Re:Self-help)
Date: September 05, 2001 3:57 AM
No, not even one does good. Monotheism did not turn these people into monsters, however these people of which you speak as monsters have used the monotheism vehicle to carry out their wickedness.
I contend that monotheism turns people into monsters who would not have otherwise been such. Monotheism promotes a tribal totem loyalism, and this loyalism has the power to "immunize people against all appeals to pity, to forgiveness, to decent human feelings" as Richard Dawkins so aptly described the situation.
I contend that it is the religion itself that does this. Even Communism used the elements of religion that I am speaking about, turning atheism itself into a religious dogma around which they rallied to obtain the loyalty of the people. Rather than atheism being the simple absence of religious faith, the Communists turned it into a positive belief: "There are no gods."
PAM is trying to restore the original definition of atheism to popularity by saying that atheism is the simple absence of religious faith. Atheism, in this sense, stops being anything special -- it stops being something around which it is even possible to rally and become loyal. Atheism, in this sense, is simply the default human state before religious faith has had a chance to do her work on her victims.
PAM further protects atheism from being a rallying point for loyalism by insisting that all religious people have (or think they have) valid reasons for believing the way they do. This forces us to consider what it would be like to have grown up and never challenged the faith of our fathers. This forces us to consider what it would be like not to have had the luxury of examining what we thus far have taken for granted because that's what we learned on our Mama's knee. This forces us to consider what it would be like for one's relationship with kin to be more important than truth itself. Of all the unique spins on atheism that we have, this is certainly the most controversial among atheists. It is also probably our most attractive feature among the new breed of atheists that is fast replacing the old school of spiteful, vindictive atheism popularized by Madalyn Murray O'Hair and even, to a small extent, Robert Ingersoll.
You know, I didn't purposefully try to contradict your examples of scripture that were to support your questions. I earnestly thought you were asking how these people could justify these incidents that occurred if the Scriptures do not support it.
I realize this, and realized it when I wrote my response, but I still maintain it is a trick even if you were not personally aware that the habits you've learned from studying Christian apologetics are very wiley.
Nevertheless, my point still stands: you can use Scripture to justify just about any position. This only shows that Christian are still using their own human reason to make decisions and to come up with answers -- even if they themselves think they are getting it from Scripture!
I've looked ... I've must have overlooked. I could not find the verse in John of which you speak. Could you share it with me?
John 15:6 was used for centuries to justify burning my forebears at the stake. It reads:
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If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. |
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This passage was seen as a direct commandment from Christ. It specifically says that "men" gather them, so cannot refer to the angels casting us into Hell fire. Also, the prohibition from Hebrew Scripture against spilling blood combined with this passage justified burning people, as this mode of death prevented blood from being spilled. All of the Christian tortures were specially designed to avoid the spilling of blood.
In His denunciation of the religigencia, Jesus said, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee the judgment of Gehenna? I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues (churches) and pursue from town to town..." (Matt24:33-34)
Had there been any mention of burning here, I might be swayed toward believing that Jesus had clairvoyant powers. However, all the methods described here were current for the day, failing to show that whoever wrote this had knowledge for ideas beyond what was available to anybody who lived during those times.
And what ... did they (Peter and Paul) say that would make these men think that killing her with such brutality was in express obedience to a commandment of God?
Could you share with me what these men allegedly said?
This refers to both Apostles' prohibition against a woman teaching a man. Hypatia was a brilliant scientist on the order of a Newton or a Darwin. Because she taught science in the Library of Alexandria and because many of her students were men, a mob of Christian monks hacked her to death with oyster shells. The Christian leadership at the time justified the act because Hypatia was teaching science to men.
I thank you for your concerns and your kind sentiments, but the myth of the religion, however noble, cannot salve the wounds that the religion itself has inflicted both upon me as an individual and upon the culture into which I was born.
Religion's goal is to dominate a large fraction of any culture. To accomplish this goal, religion creates gods and heroes that will attract the attention and the admiration of the people. When the Christian followers of Paul invented Jesus of Nazareth, they put into his mouth the greatest wisdom of the day -- and for good reason. The followers of Mohammed (if Mohammed even existed) did the same thing for Allah and His Prophet. Naturally, if you have set out to invent a god, you do well to attribute to Him the best and loftiest sentiments you can imagine.
These glowing words are used when representing the enticements of the religion to the public as a benign attractive persona. Because this is a classic bait-and-switch head game, the target, once inside the group, is told that only the group has truth and nothing outside of the group is good. The classic words of Thomas à Kempis reflect this strategy: "Trust not to friends and kindred, neither do thou put off the care of thy soul's welfare til hereafter; for men will sooner forget thee than thou art aware of" (The Imitation of Christ).
Then the words originally used to entice the mark into the group begin to show their true meaning to the group members. The word love, which has a specific meaning outside the group, comes to mean "obedience" in the group. Other words "killed off" in this manner include life, death, truth, joy, peace, and wisdom. Thus, when a Christian talks of "truth" (usually capitalized "Truth"), we observers think of one thing but the Christian means something entirely different.
This exclusive use of language makes it easier for the mark to accept on faith what even his own senses cannot verify, which promotes the mark to distrust even his own senses. Thus, "Lean not unto thine own understanding" becomes a central motto of the Christian. This religion frowns on all emotions except guilt, encouraged as a means of mind control, along with a trivialized "peace" and an indecisive "joy" -- which, as I stated above, means something entirely different from what it does to the uninitiated human whose emotions have remained unscathed by Christian indoctrination. These emotions must be contrived because they do not arise naturally, spontaneously, as they would out of normal human experience. Natural human emotions such as anger become sin, to be suppressed or redefined at all costs because the "natural man" is to be suppressed in place of the "new creation" in Christ.
At this point, bridges are burned in a last-ditch attempt to prevent the mind from returning to its normal state and to keep the mark loyal by complete dependence on the group for all emotional needs. The "real world," perceived solely in terms of the Christian world view, becomes foreign. As psychologist Edmund D. Cohen said, "The content of the teaching, as well as the form of social relations, is set up so as to dig a psychological moat around the believers."
Well "inside" the group, the mark is pummeled into submission through the fear of what awaits those who fail to subjugate their humanity to the will of the leadership. Of course, this "will" is naturally cloaked as the will of the Christian godhead, as expressed in the Bible. But as I suggested above, this "will" could turn out to be just about anything the leadership wants it to be, because, as I have shown earlier, the Bible can be made to take both sides of just about any issue you could imagine. (I've even seen the Bible made to forbid the ingestion of LSD, which was not until the late 1930s, and not discovered until April 19, 1943!)
Edmund D. Cohen, quoted above, is the author of the book, The Mind of the Bible Believer. When I left the Church, three books influenced me more than any others. The first was White's History of the Warfare of Science and Theology in Christendom, which showed me what happened to me when, while still in the Church, I studied Church history. The shock came from the Christian apologists' inability to hide the hideous results of taking on Christian dogma as public policy and as a philosophy of life.
The second book was actually a trilogy by Hyam Maccoby, two of which I have read and now own, and the third of which I have never seen (because it was never published?). Maccoby's Revolution in Judaea introduced me to the concept of the historical Jesus, divorced from the mythical Jesus of the Gospels. Cohen suggests a Jesus who was a devout Pharisee -- of the noble Pharisees of history rather than the straw-man "Pharisees" so viciously misrepresented by the New Testament -- as well as a loyal Jewish nationalist seeking to free his country from the Roman occupation and thinking that he was the man who had been ordained by God to accomplish this task.
Maccoby's other book, The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, was actually the first of the two to catch my eye. I had specialized in the writings of Paul, having realized early on that Paul was the interpreter of Christ as we know him today. In my attempts to remain loyal to my faith, I suppressed several glaring discrepancies that I distinctly noticed during my studies. Just seeing the subtitle, "Paul and the Invention of Christianity," on the library shelf, hit me like a flood because this was the logical conclusion of what I had initially seen: Paul as interpreter of Christ, became Paul the inventor of Christ now that it had become clear to me that Christ was not all that he'd been cracked up to be -- not by my experience, anyway!
In Revolution in Judaea, Jewish scholar Maccoby shows the many discrepancies in the Gospels that draw the immediate attention of anybody versed in Jewish history and the Jewish religion. Already mentioned was the discrepancy between how the Pharisees are described in the Gospels versus what we know about them from other sources, such as the works of Josephus as well as their own writings. Many passages where Jesus allegedly rails against "the Pharisees" are criticisms of teachings and practices rightly leveled against other sects. At one point, Jesus is made to attack the Pharisees, but the words placed into his mouth are classic Pharisee arguments against the Sadducees!
Of the discrepancies that Maccoby brings to his readers' attention, the idea that Jews would encourage and laud the crucifixion of any Jew is the biggest of all. Thus, when the Jews are said to have cried for the release of Barabbas (meaning, "the son of the Father"), they were probably crying for the release of Jesus himself! this tale having been twisted around in later times for the purpose of hurling contempt against the Jews before an essentially Roman readership. Careful comparison of the Gospel stories reveals that hardly any good is spoken of the Jewish characters, and never is a Roman character portrayed in an unsavory light -- even when the story casts them in a bad way. Even Pilate is shown to have no small ray of faith in Christ while in the very act of having him put to death! Thus, the two villains, Barabbas and Judas, were most likely inventions designed to vilify the Jewish people in this seminal work of anti-Semitism. This was crucial for the furthering of the idea that God had withdrawn His grace from the Jews and given it, instead, to the Jews' enemies, the Gentiles.
While Revolution in Judaea shows Jesus to have most likely been a loyal Pharisee, The Mythmaker makes a compelling case that Paul's alleged claim to have been a Pharisee to be false. (This claim occurs only in Philippians, which is probably a forgery.) Examining the places in Paul's writings where he pretends to be scholarly, particularly Romans 7:1-6, Maccoby shows, instead, the very absence of that precision of thinking which marks Pharisaic training. Maccoby then examines the extant writings of a sect known as the Ebionites, whose claims exist only in the refutations of Epiphanius (most of the writings of Christianity's ideological opponents exist in this form, as excerpted by the early "heresy fighters," since the State Church made sure to burn any writings that did not bolster her own claims and position). According to the Ebionites, Paul was a Roman who failed Pharisee training and returned to work as a goon for the High Priest, a quisling for the Roman occupation and no friend of the Jews. To turn one's back on the people and instead work for the Romans would be the last thing you would expect from any Pharisee.
The final book to bring about in me a striking -- that is, shocking ring of familiarity was Edmund D. Cohen's The Mind of the Bible Believer, which I briefly and subtly summarized for you above. Like the work on Church history and the works about Jesus and Paul, reading Cohen's book was like seeing what my mind had been suppressing for many years, but seeing it clearly for the first time. The shock from reading this book was as vivid as the shock from having read the other two: this book describes precisely what had happened to me, from beginning to end! I went through the entire process that he talks about -- numbered and in order!
Cliff Walker
Positive Atheism Magazine
Six years of service to
people with no reason to believe
From: "Tom Bratcher"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Sent: September 26, 2001 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: Addendum to last letter (Re:Self-help)
I have had this in my drafts folder since September 7, 2001, and had intended to send it the week of the 10th, however I had not had a chance to look it over to make sure I did not have any obvious gaffs. However, I was distracted and disturbed as was our nation by the atrocity of the 11th. The passengers and crew of Flight 93 are True American Heroes.
John 15:6 was used for centuries to justify burning my forebears at the stake. It reads:
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If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. |
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Possibly why I did not notice this reference specifically to men is because the versions of the Bible that I have, do not have the reference to men doing the gathering. NASB ... and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. NKJV ... and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. NAB (Catholic) ... people will gather them and throw them into the fire and they will be burned. NIV (not my preferred Bible version, either) ... such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Jesus certainly is not commanding his disciples to carry out this analogy. He is saying He is the vine and we are the branches, if someone tries to live apart from Him, that person is like a dead tree limb ...
"...for apart from me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)
This verse of which you have referred may be what someone has tried to use to justify a most heinous action but it is in no way a commandment to His disciples. This misapplication of scripture to try to justify burning those whom do not believe the gospel by those whom say they are proponents of same said gospel is gross negligence and most diabolical.
However, it does appear that this painful experience is a possible outcome in the future for those whom have lived apart from Christ at the end (end of the age, not our natural life)or what is referred to as the second death.
Jesus does specifically encourage His disciples to obey His commandments in His words to follow in the same chapter and He does specifically give them a "commandment: love one another as I have loved you." (John 15:12) And, "This I command you: love one another." (John 15:17)
I thank you for your concerns and your kind sentiments, but the myth of the religion, however noble, cannot salve the wounds that the religion itself has inflicted both upon me as an individual and upon the culture into which I was born.
You know, I know allot of people who are very intelligent who are searching. They listen to me and my opinion because they know me and out of toleration (not respect) (maybe a little) (very little). Most of these people grew up in the church. But religion has let them down. They sensed error so they have walked away. Religion did let them down.
However I, as a child, experienced the blessings of being a person who conscientiously chose to behave in a way a to find favor or be in obedience with our Father's will. And I recall how I chose to walk out from under that umbrella of protection and blessings as a teenager and young adult. And I noticed that I did not like living out from under that umbrella of blessing that I had chosen to walk out from under. The church had instilled in me a foundation or a compass that I used to find my way back. It was not the church or religion or a particular format of the church or religion that saved me, though. It was Jesus' words. His promises.
I started reading a King James version with the thee's and thou's. That was tough. Hard to understand. But then I got a Book written in today's American English. I was diligently pursuing these words, when I physically experienced the inrush of wind as alluded to in John 3:8 and described in Acts 2:2. I only know one other person who has had this experience. I do not believe this experience is a prerequisite to being a "believer". I do know that I think differently. I'm pretty laid back, I really don't prefer confrontation. However, I do feel led at times to pursue conversation that will initiate dialogue that may be confrontational.
I have also experienced answered prayer. In John 15, Jesus says, "If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you." Not as a genie-in-a-bottle, wish granting action but as a Father who gives His son good stuff, if and when he askes (Matt 7-11, Luke 11-13)
Religion has let allot of these guys down, however these guys did not have a compass to get them back to the Book and find out our Father's expectation and promise to us.
There is a remnant out there. A small group of believers out there, in and out of the "brick and mortar" concept of the church that make up the "Bride" that Jesus is coming back for. There is no denomination that can claim exclusivity to that membership. I am a Christ follower without a church. Yet I do have the relationship with our Father, without a "brick and mortar" place to meet others in agreement with me.
"The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water." (Rev 22:7)
You have obviously done allot of research and found opinions that support your unbelief. I can also see how you could grasp this information as revelation knowledge from your experience. Please know that it is from my diligent pursuit of our Father's expectation via the words carried to the present by the Comforter, Holy Spirit, and my first person experience of this relationship that I can confidently tell you that I know that there is a Creator. He is a patient and loving Father. He does not wish that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance.
I wish I could tell you that having this relationship would cause all your painful circumstances to go away, but I cannot. I can tell you that by working on getting this relationship right with our Father first, that I do a better job of building and maintaining the relationships with the people around me. I still mess up. I get selfish and want things my own way at times. But humility and forgiveness (character traits that are tough for this "I don't get mad, I get even" culture) go a long way to fixing things than the words one wishes they could reel back in.
I do also feel peace and liberty knowing that our Father, God, Creator exists; knowing that I am free of the penalty of sin and and I have peace knowing this crazy space ride we call life on this earth is not a futile happenstance caused by a random electrical charge in a primordial stew. There is order and purpose.
You do seem to have allot of information to justify your position. It doesn't appear that what I have tried to share with you is palatable for you and I regret that. I wish that you could claim and grasp ownership of my knowledge that there is a Creator, Father, God who earnestly desires to see your eyes looking toward Him for the answers to the questions in your life.
Religion is messed up.
But ... our Father still loves you ...
I will pray for you as a brother that has felt orphaned and whom has been estranged from the family and that someday you will have the desire to find a way home. Not via a church or religion, but through the words and promise of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Sincerely,
Tom Bratcher
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From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Tom Bratcher"
Subject: Re: Addendum to last letter (Re:Self-help)
Date: September 26, 2001 9:38 PM
Jesus certainly is not commanding his disciples to carry out this analogy.
The Jesus that moderns believe in would never do something like this, but the overall gist of the Hebrew Scriptures are at least this barbaric, so someone who is using only the Christian Bible to obtain moral input could easily (and justly) conclude that the Son of the Hebrew Deity would act no differently than his Father did.
This verse of which you have referred may be what someone has tried to use to justify a most heinous action but it is in no way a commandment to His disciples.
How it's supposed to read (and I won't get into that beyond the above statement) has nothing to do with the fact that for centuries people used this very passage as a commandment to burn people alive.
The attempts of the Christian Church to suppress her bloody history (to increase her prospects for gaining political supremacy once again) probably have a lot to do with why so many modern "translations" go to such great lengths to translate this and several other key "proof texts" of Medieval butchery differently from the way the Inquisitionists understood them.
Another example is I Timothy 6:1-5. A proper reading of this passage, as I have always understood it, has Paul saying what the King James has him saying (because otherwise there's too much of a break in the focus of the subject). Thus, if anybody disagrees with Paul's teaching on human slavery he is anathema, etc. It makes no sense for Paul to be talking about human slavery and then to pronounce a curse on anybody who disagrees with some generic "sound doctrine" -- as some newer "translations" have rendered this passage. No, the natural reading, to me, is that Paul curses anybody who disagrees with his views on human slavery.
Now, on a practical side, since Evangelical Christianity is the unofficial State Religion of the United States for the next three years and four months, I am actually glad that your interpretation of John 15:6 and your (probable) interpretation of I Timothy 6:1-5 prevails among modern Christians. Why? Because this makes it less likely that should Bush's antics be used as precedent for actually turning this into a bona fide Christian nation, we are less likely to see the followers of Rushdooney implementing into law human slavery and the auto-da-fé "cleansing" ritual. So, I'm rather glad that post-Enlightenment Christendom has altered the Word of their God. Maybe we won't have to endure what our forebears had to endure at the hands of your forebears.
However, it does appear that this painful experience is a possible outcome in the future for those whom have lived apart from Christ at the end (end of the age, not our natural life)or what is referred to as the second death.
It is most unfortunate that people still believe this way:
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Any body of men who believe in hell will persecute whenever they have the power. |
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Author Cyril Connolly agreed, in kind:
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Believing in Hell must distort every judgement on this life. |
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as did noted historian W. E. H. Lecky:
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The doctrine of a material hell in its effect was to chill and deaden the sympathies, predispose men to inflict suffering, and to retard the march of civilization. |
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There are, to me, two proper responses to any mention of the notion of a literal Hell. We could, with atheist philanthropist Joseph Lewis, be sympathetic and say:
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I do not believe that if there is a God of this vast universe that such a God would create a hell to torment to all eternity helpless and innocent human beings. I defend the God of the religionists against the libels of his own believers. |
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Or we could, with Civil War hero Robert Green Ingersoll, condemn the idea for what it is, considering that I would rather go there than worship a deity who would create such a place.
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Nothing could add to the horror of hell, except the presence of its creator, God. |
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That anybody could fail to see that the doctrine of a literal Hell was invented to keep the masses in line and as an aid to proselytization campaigns escapes me entirely. I have trouble fathoming many of the superstitions which people have looked me straight in the eye and told me were true, but this one simply boggles my mind.
And they tell this story to their young children! This is child abuse in the extreme.
Religion is messed up.
So why do you continue to tell your fellow humans that it is good?
Cliff Walker
Positive Atheism Magazine
Six years of service to
people with no reason to believe
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